Addressing Zealot's Weaknesses Post BbD: Firearms, Blocking, and Cosplay, Oh My!

To be clear, it’s not that I think the Zealot class is currently representative of Melee Superiority. It’s more so that I believe the class has the tools to support the fantasy of it. That being said, those tools currently hold too little value for the fantasy to translate into reality. And they are missing a lot of other utility on top of that.

When I think about what I would want from a Melee Specialist class, I think about my Melee weapons first and foremost. I want the class to reward me for knowing my weapon in and out. That’s part of why I like the idea of blocking nodes and why I don’t mind having conditional amps. Both could be great ways of rewarding the player for knowing enough about how to get value out of their weapon.

The problem is that neither are. The Blocking nodes have low value and the class doesn’t have the CC to make aiming for a specific location a viable form of play. Part of what I like about the class is that I don’t get rewarded power for free. But if I have to work that hard for my bonuses relative to the other classes, then I want my bonus to have that much more impact relative to the other classes. Except I think that’s how the class was balanced before and it lead to the mono build because there was just an explicit best setup to run. Too much power was concentrated in a handful of nodes. Now the power is a lot more scattered, which would theoretically better for build variety, except the class was previously designed to get most of its power from being surrounded, and it doesn’t have enough CC utility to to take advantage of those Amps consistently.

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I can agree with that.

I think adding nodes to the class that give bonuses for using weapon special attacks for example (parries, the heavy swords’ fast two-hitter, revved chainweapons) could be a way to double down on Zealot’s ‘I’m THE melee guy!’ without stepping on the Ogryn and Arbiters’ toes by directly having a shield. Or if they’re block talents, make it a very low investment ‘perfect blocking an attack increases stagger/power/rending by X% for 10s, stacks decaying one at a time up to 5x’ would do well.

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Good idea. Make it apply to gun bash specials too.

The new talent tree has already started rewarding more technical melee with a push attack talent and (sigh) perfect block talent.

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I would like to make the case for Block-Based Talents on the Zealot Class. If the Zealots whole thing is supposed to be Melee Superiority, then they should get the most value out of every mechanic surrounding melee. Dodging, Backstabs, and yes, blocking. One of the units of the Ecclesiarchy that I believe Zealots to be inspired by is the Drill Abbot (who are the primary instructors of the Schola Progenium (while I don’t think we’re at that level, the class has several Backgrounds that tie us to the Progenium or higher martial training in general).

Blocking is an example of Mechanical Expression, and it’s tied directly two Shoving and Push Attacks, since you need to block in order to do either of the other two. And those skills are valuable on the Class. Nodes like “Retaliatory Defense” and “Punish Impiety” give great value for doing those actions.

This goes right back to Blocking to me. The Relic Blade, Eviscerator, Chain Axe, Crusher, Heavy Sword, and even Thunder Hammer all have great Shove Attacks that are great to loop into any combo. I’m sure when you complain about the Class not having strong bonuses 2-Handed Weapons you’re thinking of specific bonuses for those weapons. Except, Fatshark tried that, and we got “Unfaltering”, a skill that gives a prescriptive bonus that isn’t reflective of how any skilled player actually uses Heavy Weapons on the class. If anything, it only made light weapons even better. Bonuses to blocking though are descriptive, because you are going to block. If for no other reason than the fact that those heavy weapons have great shove attacks. So making blocking better isn’t a matter of taking away Zealot’s capacity to aggress. It’s facilitating it.

Think about what Bonuses you get from the Blocking nodes. “Impassable” gives you back your dodges, which so many of the class’s bonuses are tied to, and “Retaliatory Defense” gives you back a ton of stamina, which is perfect for Shove Attacks. One of the biggest weaknesses of those 2-Handed Heavy Weapons on the class is that they have significantly worse Dodge Efficacy. From my testing, all of those Block Related Talents also trigger on Parries. On a Perfect Parry, “Impassable” will give you three dodges back. Attack Speed is fantastic for slower weapons, and “Punish Impiety” specifically gives you that bonus on Push Follow-up Attacks. So there are already a lot of things that will lead you to blocking anyway. The desire for blocking isn’t to make the act of hunkering down better. As you rightfully pointed out, that’s Arbites and Ogryn’s job. But there is a difference in Mechanical Expression and Mechanics. The Mechanical Expression is the active action you are taking, the Input you are doing to trigger the Mechanics. The Mechanics are the Bonuses you get for engaging w/ the input. For Zealot, we have nodes that are tied to the input of blocking, but that give bonuses to aggression and dodging. The problem w/ Zealots Block-Based Nodes is that they don’t give enough value to just the act of blocking itself, and put too much value in Perfect Blocks and Parries. And that’s a problem because the class doesn’t care about perfect blocks so much as it cares about bashing out block to get a thrust attack. But if Blocking was better at base, if the bonuses that FS has tied to the input of blocking were better, then Heavy Weapons gain the most.

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The big thing I want to convey to people is the difference between Input and Output. The input is that we block, but the output is the specific bonuses we get. And in regards to Zealot, those bonuses, those outputs, are related to Dodge Refreshing, Melee Attack Speed, and Stamina Regeneration. Dodging is what a bunch of Zealots amps are tied to, Melee Attack Speed is a raw DPS bonus to any weapon but especially Heavy Weapons, and Stamina is great for Push Follow-Ups, which the Zealot gets a ton a value out of considering the class has access to a great roster of weapons with incredibly powerful push attacks.

The problem w/ the power of the Block focused nodes isn’t that they ask you to block; you’re gonna be doing that anyway, and tying your control of bonuses to the trigger of blocking is actually really smart. The problem is that the window for those triggers are too specific, so you aren’t getting the bonuses in a way that is really reflective to when and how you actually block. When I talk about raising the base line value of blocking, I’m not suggesting making the Input better but the Output better. Make the mechanics that trigger on the Input better.

And I mean, unironically, yes. I don’t mind having more technical play in the class. I like the class because the technical play. But I want the technical play to be more reflective of the reality of playing the class. I mentioned in another reply that “Unfaltering” is kind of a bad bonus because it tries to buff 2-Handed weapons, but the bonus isn’t reflective of how most skilled players use heavy weapons, so it ends up doing more for lower skilled players and weapons that aren’t heavy (if you thought the DS was slippery before).
Zealot isn’t about technical defense. It’s technical offense. So if FS makes even the Zealot’s defense feed into their offense, that’s great. That’s why, regarding current Blocking Talent Nodes, I didn’t try and change the core of their bonus, but instead open up the triggering windows. Like, it’s all well and good to reward the player for doing something perfectly but since the Zealot isn’t about defense then it should get some bonus for even interacting w/ defense in the first place. A lot of the other classes specifically get practically free power, so this should be where Zealot gets theirs.
I would even go so far as to posit that if you took all my suggestions regarding defensive nodes (blocking nodes and nodes that I think should be blocking nodes), if you made “Shield of Contempt” active when blocking, and made it so “Impassable” gave you dodge refreshes based on Stamina Spent while blocking, not only would it would make the class even more aggressive but it make “Unfaltering” better as a Block Oriented Node as well. If I had no movement speed penalty while blocking and I counted as blocking while charging heavy attacks I could charge at enemies and unleash a heavy or push attack while getting 60% DR, and if I have to block after doing so and I get block broken, “Retaliatory Defense” triggers into more push attacks, which increase the amount of dodges i’m refreshing w/ “Impassable”. I personally think that would be Fresh AF. It would make Parry Weapons way more aggressive as well as 2-Handed Weapons. It ties way more power to the player’s personal skill expression and address a lot of the weaknesses of heavier weapons in an elegant way. If you want them to keep up w/ light weapons, give them the tools to literally keep pace w/ them

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I would agree that Zealot used to be designed like this, but as another commentor pointed out

And I believe that FS agrees w/ this. You can kind of see a microcosm of this specific design consideration if you’re looking at “Martyrdom”. I would personally argue that Martyr was fine before BbD. Not the greatest, but plenty usable. But I also have played w/ lower skilled players who think it’s useless. “Martyrdom” post BbD has a lot of buffs that just raise it’s general usability overall, but also specifically makes it much easier to use for lower skilled players. You can even see this in the nodes surrounding the Keystone. I would argue that “Unfaltering”, “Bleed for the Emperor”, and “Restoring Faith” are all nodes that do more for less confident players using the keystone.

The Class used to be balanced around the idea of Power and Survivability in the thick of it. But that meant that players who were uncomfortable aggressing while on low health, players who couldn’t keep up with the proverbial choreography of the Zealots dance, just didn’t use the class. This Balancing also created problems for skilled players. Experienced Players typically want to build the class in a way that focuses on its strengths. If the class is at its strongest when you’re being overrun, then instead of taking any other kind of utility, you take the utility that makes you more powerful in that moment. So all the class’s most meaningful power was concentrated into a handful of nodes. And finally, this leads to problems w/ Team Composition and Synergy. Having a competent Zealot on the team is great because they are survivable enough to clutch back victory from the jaws of defeat. But if every other class is designed to Obtain Victory, and Zealot is designed to Deny Defeat, then the Zealot is only valuable when things go bad. If you’ve been playing Zealot as long as I have, especially as a Solo Que Player, then you’ve probably had those games where you happen into a Ranged Focus Explosive team, and your build just kinda turns off, because there’s no place for you to get into “the thick of it”, which forces you to play away from your team because you won’t really be able to do anything near them. The Class effectively turning off when the team is winning can’t possibly be what FS wants. And they want the other classes to have enough power to win. So Zealot had to change.

I would argue that now Zealots Design Philosophy is focused on Generalized Survivability and Melee Superiority. But the transition hasn’t exactly been smooth. The class isn’t weak per se, because yeah, just being generally strong will get you pretty far. But now that the power isn’t specialized to being overrun, the class needs CC that it doesn’t have to actually utilize that power. Before, you were doing 1 Billion inputs because that’s just what playing Zealot good looked like, and the more inputs you could make, the more value you could get. Effectively, doing it because you wanted to. Now you’re doing 1 Billion inputs to try and get any value from any of your nodes, and you’re largely doing this into teams that can erase entire hordes of chaff by looking at them too hard. Which is very different from where the game was even a few months ago. Which means you’re doing it because you need to.

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Tanner had a good idea on how to make shotguns (and weapons in general) more useful for Zealot by changing the requirement of Dance of Death from successful Dodge to just Dodge

I’d rather change ‘Dance of Death’ proc from Dodge to Slide (and reduce duration if needed ofc) because I feel it’s more natural

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I believe he also had the alternative suggestion of just removing the “Successful Dodge” stipulation, which I also think makes a lot of sense. If the bonus is only going to last sub 8 seconds anyway, why have the extra stipulation there? It just causes the tool to have even more niche application.

I really appreciate Tanner’s content. This post was written somewhat in response to his breakdown on Zealot. His opinions tend to be reflective of my own experience, and because of the difference in play between myself and my peers, that sounding board is useful. I remember getting my hands on zealot post update and seeing talents like “Impassable” and genuinely getting excited about how to loop them into builds only to find myself really underwhelmed w/ a lot.

Tanner’s video helped me put a lot of my complaints and frustrations regarding the rework into words, which in turn allowed me to really process what I felt was missing and what I really wanted from a rework of the class. Especially because I really like the direction that FS seems to be taking the class, but the execution is just off. I’m certain that they won’t leave the class like this, but when they haven’t really indicated any plans for what they are going to do, it’s easy to get anxious. Speculating solutions that try to honor the mechanics presented is nice because if nothing else FS has access to constructive criticism, and they can see what the community thinks of the state of the gam. Even if people don’t agree w/ anything I personally suggest, the conversation in the replies can indicate what peoples deeper feelings are about various aspects of design. Darktide is the game I vibe w/ heavy, and it has been since it came out. I want it to be good.

[Also, I want to add this before the class reveal today: my absolute schizo take is that the new class is related to the event and that there are actually two classes in the pipeline. The one we get is dependent on how the event goes and the classes on the line are something Sorriritas related (like a hospitaller to tie into the stim bonus) or something Ad Mech related (to tie into the firearm bonus). Confidence in this theory absolutely zero but hey, if I’m right about anything. Frankly it would make some of the maddening discourse about classes between the Darktide content creators feel less contrived if it turned out they were deliberately throwing up a smoke screen for FS. Most people (self-included) seem to think it’s going to be Ganger for sure but honestly, I’ve decided to be indifferent about the whole thing unless they really surprise me. Regardless, I will do what I can to master the class. Just wanted to throw my own guess in the ring before it’s revealed.]

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I am sorry chat; I am never allowed to make a guess about anything again. My bad.

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Okay, update. Sorry chat. I didn’t realize my suggestion post was going to be a better guess for the new class than my actual guess. I’m being somewhat hyperbolic; but only somewhat. There’s some interesting options that Hive Scum is getting its hands on, and I wasn’t expecting to get a perfectly original class. I’m fine w/ overlap. But getting a class that is supposed to be an “overly aggressive ranged character” in contrast to our melee equivalent feels notably bad when that new class is explicitly getting a melee centric branch and Zealot still can barely get guns to function in their tree. I’ve left my complaints on the actual announcement but yeah. I don’t know. Real mixed feelings about this for me.

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Agreed. It feels like that melee tree is really stepping on Zealot’s toes both thematically (crackhead knife zealot has been a ‘thing’ since the beta and has never fallen off) and mechanically. The fact that they have an armor-killing blitz (Boom Bringer) and an active on/off Combat Ability feels like things that should be on the Zealot, who lacks all of those things.

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Can we move stealth to the hive scum and move the berserk from hive scum to the zealot?

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I’m all for some cross-pollination of skills and utility between classes, but that feels like it works better when you’re taking things from the stronger classes and giving them to weaker/newer classes. But Zealot isn’t in a strong enough position to really sustain in loss of unique utility. And there still hasn’t been any word from Fatshark regarding whether or not they have any plans to update the class and address the weaknesses spoken about here. So as excited as I am for the new class, I am equally anxious that this will just be the straw that breaks the proverbial back of zealot’s continued relevancy in the game. I mean these bonuses just kinda feel like a mix of what Inexorable currently is and what I would like for it to become.



It’s more spread out across the class, so it’s not like I think it’s exact or better, but it still is an example of Hive Scum doing a lot of what Zealot can do in a better package. The class doesn’t seem as survivable as Zealot, but survivability on its own doesn’t win games, and that’s the only thing Zealot really has going for it by comparison.

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Umm yes. Pretty sure survivabilty wins games and that’s the common mistake of this thread. While vet gets damage for breathing, she really has to work for her survivabilty. Zealot is the opposite: easy survivabilty, has to put in work for damage.

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Never had any survivability issues on my Vet. Between ‘swap to shotgun, obliterate 1 elite, swap back to melee’ refresh and the on-hit refresh and the on-elite-kill refresh and the on-ranged-kill refresh and the emergency ‘press shout to reset neutral’ you gotta either severely over-extend or make some significant blunders to have survivability issues on Vet.

Especially when you also have Krak to quickly put the kibosh on anything that could become a threat.

That sounds like work to me, in comparison zealot just has to be hit for that hit to deal less damage.

Aside from that is “I can play that” not an argument. I also clutched aurics/havoc30s on vet, still doesn’t change the fact vet has to work for it more

It’s a little early to make assumptions about power levels or survivability.

I do admit that their description of the Scum gunslinger playstyle sounds eerily like my private wishlist for a Zealot ranged spec though.

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I mean, Weapons Specialist is about as much work as ‘dodge successfully and have 3 seconds to use a weakened talent’.

Dunno what to tell you.

I just don’t agree. Having high survivability makes it more likely for you to win games by giving you a higher likelihood of bouncing back from failure. But that is not the same as that element directly contributing to your success.
To put this another way, Martyrdom will make you more survivable. But if you can play well enough that you don’t ever take damage, you aren’t benefiting from that increased survivability, which means that survivability isn’t actually contributing to your success.
Of course, that example begins to break apart at higher levels of difficulty, like Havoc 30+, but at that point the value you are getting from the enhanced survivability is directly tied to how little damage you do overall. You literally need the survivability to live long enough to kill the enemies around you. If you had greater DPS, the survivability would be less valuable.

I mean, yeah, fair. I don’t have any hard assumptions; as you suggested, it’s too early to tell. That being said, Veteran and Psyker have already been confirmed to be getting future reworks, but as Zealot has had no such announcements seeing so much overlap is very disconcerting. Like, we’ll see. I’m gonna buy and play the class regardless. But boy oh boy does that make everything said here even more pressing.

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