A contrarian point of view regarding OP players, skills, and gear

Warhammer: Vermintide 2 Gameplay Feedback
22

your reading comprehension skills are lacking too.

i never said the game was too easy. i said the characters become too over-powered (mostly due to skills and power ratings). not the same thing, although close enough that i can see why it would confuse.

with over-powered characters the ONLY way the developers can challenge the players is to either
1: strip them of powers (which causes howls of discontent)
2: keep swarming in more and more mobs and specials.

this creates a tiered system where some players who chose the “wrong” skills OR havent gained them yet (or higher power) are much weaker than others. which turns option 2 above into a death wave for them.

so how do you continue to challenge OP players without creating wipe out for others? suggestions?

again, jeez … its a kathy newman in the jordan peterson interview. ‘so what you are saying is…’

uhhh, no. thats not what i said. what i said was higher level players would not be on the rookie level because hes too busy farming gear (on a higher level). please try to pay attention. not to be snarky but …

the higher level player has little incentive to help a lower level player or want them in their group. hence the kickings that happen quite regularly.

again. not what i said. VT1 all the players were the same. no skills, no talents, no career paths. the gear and trinkets were different and the only variables. level was sort of an indicator of experience but not necessarily skill. VT1 was and is a great game. i still play it.

however,

even without the above differences and only with gear and trinkets there were significant “power” differences between players. which was ok. not complaining.

it did lead to people booting those without decent trinks or gear or for being very lower level due to the risk of their blowing a run. a problem but not a huge one.

i said that this kicking would be a much bigger issue in vt2 than it was in vt1 and that i foresaw it becoming a huge issue.

not the same thing that you claimed i said at all. not even really close.

23

Can you summarize what you want in a single paragraph? I diagonally read the thread and it seems it’s all a rant about how VT2 isn’t VT1.

1 Like
24

Ok, ok, I might have gotten some topics mixed up, but then again OP players means game’s easy for them. XD And the only way and the most used to fix this is, new content. :wink:

As for an incentive to help noobs, really?? why?? Some people like to help some don’t don’t force unecessary game mechanics on us.

But I don’t see a problem with the levels or classes, except that you’re not into RPG’s, what you are describing( bad players lvling wrong, well suck it up and try again ) happens in almost every RPG, but not here XD You can swap your skills in the keep so that doesn’t happen. -_- did you play the game at all?

I still think you’re just upset that players are leaving Vermintide 1 to play Vermintide 2. XD

25

I’m not upset people play vt2. It benefits me for fatshark to do well because I like their games.

I think the game is turning into a Monty haul. Too much was given to players. This is a difficulty for developers. How to challenge players as they grow more powerful.

Thee are only two options that can re-balance.
1: nerf. Downside is players hate losing what they had.
2: keep throwing more at players (more specials, more at same time, etc). Downside is that this
A: further tiers players by making the runs even riskier to take a stranger/ an unusual build/ not the optimal build/ etc which causes less pub games and more kicks.
B: eventually reaches ludicrous levels of enemy and new dlc to challenge the players that can defeat anything thrown at them.
C: leads players to want more rewards, more power, more skills which sets off an arms race between player power and developer keeping it challenging.
I’m saying that this setup to game mechanics can and most likely lead to a game of:

Players get to where they can beat anything easily and want more challenge —> devs increase difficulty at higher levels —> pub games become too risky for player --> more loot/power given out to reward layers at higher difficulties (and balance up other player power to make pub games more attractive) —> repeat.

This becomes untenable eventually. Its unsustainable. What do you give after Thor’s hammer? What do you dobto challenge someone with Thor’s hammer.

Option 2 can go a yearvor two before its just at crazy levels. Option 1 is the more long term sustainable.

My suggestion to devs is to start seriously nerfing NOW before it reaches ludicrous and to be prepared for the backlash. In the long term its the only solution.

Lower power levels. Even it all out. Otherwise pub games die and if that happens there goes all hopes of getting and keeping a long term LARGE player base.

The middle guys are going to be the first to disappear as some migrate to private games but most won’t. They will just disappear as in no longer playing because the more powerful won’t play with them in pub games. That leaves a group of lower levels who hit middle and go too and the casual never hit middle level on one side and the elites on another.

IMO the devs need to bridge the two groups. Reducing power and not having to slam more and more in to challenge players is the route I’d suggest.

26

I think you have the wrong game. Your description seems more like Diablo series (or most RPGs).

  1. Power is straightforward and accessible

Power comes mostly from levels. Reaching lvl cap is rather fast.
Item power cap can be reached in about 100 hours then it’s over. No more significant item progression.
End game items can be obtained by simple crafting. They are common and reproducible.

  1. Too easy

You say it’s too easy, but in my region it’s Very hard to find legend level players. Most lobbies are Recruit/Veteran and there are many topics of people complaining about difficulty.

Personally the difficulty progressed just continuously. You get more power just so that the next difficulty starts just as hard as how you started the current one. It feels like a fake progress.

This is just non sequitur. Competitive games have it much worse than V2 can possibly ever have.

  1. Nerf now
    Ok. Let’s say everything is to be nerfed. What’s the reference point?
    Maybe the player should be as strong as a regular soldier. The ones gored about everywhere.

  2. Legend is the end
    Got bored? Do a deed. Still easy? Do it all solo/duo. By then you should the needed experience about the game balance.

27

I find this post really strange, there are many games with similar systems (very hard difficulty, but with gear and powers, group play). A decent chunk of later mmorpgs are this way. A lot of the very high control realtime coop games are this way (Vindictus is a good example, the characters have much much more insane powers and it plays well with the challenges in the game, which are insanely difficult at the highest level).

As long as there are enough players at each tier of gear/power/skill/experience, this is not a problem. Just play with the others (matchmaking helps this, but natural progression from difficulty helps this as well as higher players will move up).

Their true end game is cosmetics, there is no arms race in that regard. 600 power with perfect rolls is the cap, and it is not particularly difficult to reach. That said, I don’t see a big problem with constant progression of gear, it is functional in many games, as long as the pace is relatively slow and thought through. In this game, in terms of power, I’d rather see lots of unique sidegrades, like interesting weapons or effects that are not strictly better than others but offer a new style. BH’s switching between ranged and melee constantly is an example of a very different playstyle that I find fun.

Increasing difficulty with gear without it just being a boring numbers game is definitely a challenge, but game design is challenging. I think their current solution with a relatively low cap and cosmetics for further rewards works well in this regard.

28

Diablo is an extreme Monty haul but works because they constantly scale upwards AND if you die you respawn in seconds - ready to keep playing.

Therefore no real downside to carrying someone.

I’d think with most who are serious about game hitting max power In about 100 hours is about right. That leaves, as I said two groups. The first is the casual 15-20 hours on a game and move on and this isn’t applicable to them. The second group is around 40 hours in and they will, IMO, have a progressively harder time moving up. Why? The stronger groups of players won’t want them in their team. This system will cause an inordinate amount to try (get kicked, solo with bots, etc) and quit. Not good for the game. Its already happening.

29

I disagree Vindictus, keeps adding more and more ludicrous nonsense but gameplay is solid so people stay.

What do you give them after thor’s hammer??Zeus’s lightning rod after that, kronos’s scepter, after that you create a whole new tier of titan classes with new and insane armors and weapons, after that… you get the point.

Wasn’t all that Vermintide 1 DLC so great that you want to keep buying more? O_o

Be glad with wha tyou have and let the devs worry about what else they need to put out to keep us interested. :wink:

Chill and namaste.

P.S. - Also what I’m getting more is players that do not coordinate or horde items when others need them.
Never once had a conversation about who takes the lead and who protects the rear and almost allways I see people keeping healing pots when others have low health.( I know noobs waste but better they’re alive than not. O_o )

30

yeah. the healing pot hoarding and the lack of coordination of whos taking rear guard (and that the others wont just run off and leave them alone against an oncoming wave without even looking back) is a major downside to pub games.

ive never played vindicitus so i really cant comment on it. it sounds interesting tho. i will check out some videos, etc and see.

i DID like the vt1 DLC and bought them all (except stormdorf and if it ever went on a 60% sale id buy it too but am not going to until and if it does). id continue to buy the dlc if it came out.

the whole zeus’s lightning rod afterwards and then more monsters to challenge that and raising the level caps to toss in some more skills and then yet more goodies is not sustainable. it is for some game times. diablo springs to mind. but you cant do the ever escalating loot, power, skills … rinse, repeat … forever without taking what actually made this game good and destroying it.

the dev’s did a great job creating this game (both 1 and 2) and i like them both. i just dont think 2 is going to be sustainable without eliminating or scaling back drastically the very thing that people apparently really like.

ffs, isnt it smarter to just make the monsters a bit easier and give you a hammer vs trying to find a monster that can challenge thor’s hammer? the sheer upward spiral starts to accelerate once it takes off. want to bet the first dlc adds some new skills, maybe a new class, and increases both level cap and power cap? and then whoosh … off to the races you go.

31

Yes it’s very hard to keep adding content to keep endgamers happy without starting to mess up, but that’s evolution. It is possible, I guess, if the core battle mechanics stay unchanged while adding more gear and enemies, but the real issue with this is not with the game itself can entice the audience, but if the game can still make enough money to pay it’s staff and microtransactions would make things even worse( glad there’s none yet XD ). I’m sure a lot of things thought out in Vermintide 1 we’re only implemented in Vermintide 2. Wether we’ll see the game evolve into something better or worse we’ll have to wait and see.

I think the only issue with OP gear is when you get it in game, too early and games easy, too late and weapon is virtually useless. Maybe to counter that make the tier system refuse higher power levels in lower tier runs. Since it seems lvl doesn’t affect power only the gear.

I think the players that get an OP weapon and then rant about the game being easy are not that bright, it’s an OP weapon that’s the point of it, use a weaker one if you want the challenge, I guess what I’ve been trying to say is you cannot please everyone.XD It’s hard being a developer.

I really don’t feel the need to go find tougher enemies, is that too weird. O_o