A contrarian point of view regarding OP players, skills, and gear

monty haul games - “However, the DM seldom has the same enjoyment. He is faced with the task of topping the last lucrative adventure. He must make each adventure a greater challenge than the last. While this is true for all DMs, it is grossly exaggerated for the DM who has given out too much: How do you top the adventure where the fighter got the Hammer of Thor or some equally valuable item?”

the same can be applied to game developers.

in VT1 there are already issues with getting public groups together.
gear - is it good enough to match the difficulty level chosen?
level - is it high enough that one can safely assume a stranger has learned how to actually play?

this issue is going to be magnified with vt2. now you can add in skills.

this is turning into a monty haul game. its going to come back and bite you in the butt.

as your players add skills, get the gear, and progress you are going to find it difficult to challenge them. you will have to keep throwing more and more at them quicker and quicker. non-stop swarms and mobs with specials tossed in increasingly?

even before you get there you are going to find the public game aspect is already broken in VT1 and its going to get worse in VT2. why should a higher level player with tons of good skills, lots of good gear, and some experience want to play with a level 8 player on any difficulty when they lack gear, skills, and experience? this differential is going to increase as player levels go up and the vast differences between the levels make it increasingly difficult for lower levels to hang in higher difficulties or for higher levels to want to play with a lower level who cant really contribute much and in many cases can contribute less than a bot.

i think you went radically wrong in vt2. you tried to fix some stuff (loot system) and to give levels meaning but in doing so all you did was create new problems. the new problems are going to be much more difficult to fix. look at the players already whinging because you want to nerf their ability to insta-heal the whole way through a level or took away thor’s hammer from them. bad as you might consider that its a hell of a lot better than trying to keep topping a monty haul game and just making the situation worse.

there are other issues that could have improved game play or player satisfaction. but none of them are anywhere near as dangerous to the long term health of your game as the monty haul aspect VT2 has become. this is going to hurt your game badly in a few months when player levels really start to become an issue and in the long run this is going to kill your game.

so, i plead with you not to give up on VT1. dont try to change it to VT2. let it be. keep putting out DLC. its going to be played LONG after VT2 is.

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Rolls up newspaper, Whacks nose Firmly.

Bad gamer, BAD!

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i read the whole thing and then you talk about v1. super confusing.

v2 systems are in a constant state of update. in many games, this is the sustenance to keep the game fresh and in motion. they make a nerf or buff here, certain classes become fun or not fun to play, new ways to play the classes get invented, things are fresh again. expecting a NEW game (this game hasn’t even been out 1 day) to be perfect right off the get go, is unfair and also dangerous, because it forces the devs to be too conservative, scared of making dramatic changes for fear of community reprisal.

i want the devs to be bold. to give good design choices a try, not to cater to the multitude of whiners who only think of catering to their skill level or personality.

in v1 players complained so much about the loot system, and how the levels meant nothing. they thought about it, designed it to circumvent this issue, and now you’re here complaining about the systems and the problems it presents.

In other words… nothing they do is going to satisfy people like yourself. give the game some time to mature.

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Uuuhm what ? 0_o

The thing is that there are multiple groups of people with differing tastes. You can’t blame op for other people giving feedback he does not agree with. All the op has in his/her arsenal of tools to effect change is to give feedback. “Well your feedback is the opposite of some of the feedback the 1st game got” and following up with “In other words… nothing they do is going to satisfy people like yourself.” is not a valid argument, because obviously op is not the people that complained in VT1.

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i compared and contrasted vt1 and vt2. i thought it was a fair comparison since its made my the same company, is in the same series, and hasve many game play traits in common.

i agree the game is still getting its bugged worked out. some things are going to be changed. its an evolution.

i dont expect the game to be perfect. i am pointing out that the emperor doesnt have any clothes on. this is set up to be a multi player game and yet is a monty haul game. those two elements do NOT work together very well. thats in addition to the common monty haul problems that the devs are already running into and people are already whining about.

further, i disagree that tinkering here and there is going to solve this problem. it might ease it somewhat as they try to bring things into balance … thats true. but it wont solve it because the entire concept of levels and skills IS the underlying issues and apparently the devs are fully committed to this.

People kicking because of low hero levels read this post and let it sink in for a moment. this is a DAY after release. lets be honest. we both know that the devs will be pressured to raise the maximum level caps at some point as more and more players make it there. they will face pressure as well to give more skills with those levels or else players will howl they are meaningless levels. explain how this problem isnt just going to get worse as times goes on. explain how this is good for a game. its bad in VT1 with this stuff - people are afraid to play PUB games due to getting lower ranked players who dont have gear and dont know how to play. in vt2 add in skills from levels and it will get worse. add in more skills and it will exponentially increase. of course the crafty min/max gamer is going to say “give an achievement” for helping lower levels on missions precisely so they can gain an achievement and then never do it again. but other than that bit of nonsense … do you see a way out of this serious problem given the game play and changes in vt2?

i think your saying “nothing they do is going to satisfy people like yourself” is a strawman. i never said that. i tried the beta. i liked it. i am giving honest feed back. i played vt1 too. bought the dlc as well. ive not quit playing vt1, ill keep playing it. if they keep putting out dlc ill keep buying it.

i have vt2 as well. i like it too. but i see the handwriting on the wall with vt2 and inside of 6 months power creep will have reached the point that the top and bottom will have zero in common and the push will be on to bump levels and skills to keep the group complaining happy. that will increase the problem in the long run. never give someone something and they dont miss it. take it away and they will howl.

this will be a HUGE problem down the road. pretending tweaks are going to fix it = definitely not giving a whole lot of thought to this issue.

i foresee the problem getting big enough and serious enough that eventually it WILL break the game. at which point fatshark is going to have to

  • either write it off
  • brave the howls of outrage as players, skills, career paths, and gear is nerfed to try to restore balance
  • keep trying to find some way to challenge a group of players who are so OP that frankly nothing can challenge them anymore without getting crazy

in 6mo-1yr this game is going to be so dysfunctional that it you are either god running through everything with ease or a newbie that no one will play with since you have zero to contribute with little in between. at which point the system really breaks. which is why im hoping the dev’s keep putting out dlc for vt1 because i dont think vt2 will be still be playable in a year or two.

im sure that isnt what the devs want to hear but its my honest opinion as a gamer whos been playing for over 30 years. this game has fundamental flaws that are going to stack up on each other and eventually kill it.

yea you’re right, i was being a dick

i apologize

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fair enough. i’ve seen my fair share of games that COULD have been great but ended up being gutted from the inside. let’s hope this doesn’t turn out to be one of those.

My only motive for writing this is because I absolutely love vermintide.

You can go full op player (halo), you can go full Monty haul (diablo), you can go full hardcore survival (vermintide) but you can’t mix a Monty haul with hardcore game type with out it becoming unsustainable. Especially multiplayer.

As players progress they become much more powerful. Why play with anyone who isn’t at close to your skills and buffs and gear? We see it in vt1 but it will be worse in vt2 due to the larger differences. There goes multiplayer.

As you gain skills and gear the difficulties will become easier to you due to your power. The call will go out to make the game harder. The race is on between devs to create and maintain challenge vs op players. Which in turn will freeze out the middle players killing that off.

Result? Lower players with only each other to play with and they will disappear fast because even at recruit this game isn’t a cakewalk and (especially when the whole party of randoms wipes out over and over) they will just quit. Anyone who ‘gets’ the game and likes it will race to max their characters. No middle. That’s a death spiral for ANY game.

Solution: remove all class and level traits. Make the game vt1 but with new enemies and using the mcguffin teleporter to give expanded different locations to play.

I don’t think the devs will listen. Its late in production. Its been released. People are screaming when anything is removed from them and they clamor for more power. The pressure would be immense. But its really bite the bullet and do it or watch the game die.

Its why I hope they keep up with dlc for vt1. I’d rather play that than vt2 as vt2 currently is. I’ll gladly pay for more dlc.

:joy: laughed way too hard at this!

As you’re talking about quick play, matchmaker can be tweaked to match players with level and/or power. Random parties in v1 was also wiping easily without power/talent stuff. People also got kicked from lobbies if their lvl too low. There is no much differences between v1 and v2. The only REAL difference is the power system, because it is directly affecting damage output.
Traits from gear are important, but they aren’t mandatory unless you’re running legend difficulty. What matters is your own skill, which cannot be measured in any way.
This game isn’t easy, but I think that most of players came from similar games (if not v1, then l4d, for example) and they know what they will play.

I read the whole argument, and I don’t see how VT2 isn’t sustainable compared to VT1.

In VT2 you have a lvl ceiling announced : hero lvl 30 (=> 300 power) and equipment (300 power max for oranges and red items), maxing at 600 total power. That is equivalent to full red gear in VT1 (or rather best trait / best roll oranges). You can’t get past this level of power. I don’t see the monty haul game here. Or if it is, then VT1 was one too. You make predictions that the devs will cede to whiners pressure, you “foresee” and “see the handwriting on the wall”, but from where these prophetic powers of yours come, I don’t reckon.

Regarding starting players and high-end players discrepancy, I don’t see the difference between VT1 and VT2 either. In VT1 when you want to do a full cataclysm run with full tome / grim on a difficult map, you don’t want unexperienced players joining your game and adding to the difficulty of the run by not pulling their weight, due to a lack of gear and/or skill. Same in VT2. The two player bases don’t play on the same level. Casuals might go high-end if they get hooked enough, but i don’t see why it’s different in VT1 and VT2. I don’t see how newbs and high-end are playing more together in VT1 than they will in VT2.

The only differences regarding gear are :

  • in VT1 you had clear gear tiers (white / green / blue / orange - and a few reds) that separated players who had played much from the beginners.
  • in VT2 now the tiers are more gradual, being the hero power total (hero lvl + gear lvl, gear color being irrelevant in VT2 except for legend where optimisation counts - you can do champion with green items).

This difference between the two systems is of small nature, and I would add furthermore that the gradual system VT2 provides offers newbies more flexibility to obtain gear, since every succesful run they do enhances by a little their hero power (through exp and slightly better gear), opposed to VT1 where there were hardcaps, since to obtain better gear you had to go one difficulty above your current, but with the gear from your current difficulty (the result being you undergeared for that new difficulty, making it even harder to do a successful run). Things in VT2 go smoother regarding loot progression, and it’s helping newcommers (vets don’t care they will rush max lvl either way).

Then the differences regarding lvl are :

  • in VT1, lvl represents the time you played the game, and there is no cap. Very skilled players with less hours in the game might have the same lvl than less skilled players with more hours in the game, but essentially it was a reflect of your experience in the game, and people judged by that in order to guess if you would be a deadlift or not for a hard run (I don’t say that is the good way to think. I say that’s how the majority of players thought, and it manifested in low levels being kicked out of runs for example).
  • in VT2, lvl directly affects your in-game power, but is capped at 30. Game difficulties being hidden behind total power caps (vet120, champ 220 something like that), it ensures there is a progression for the player, and that he must play a certain time in each difficulty in order to access the next, gaining hero experience (and more importantly valuable player experience) in the process. And that way, absolute newcommers won’t try the higher difficulty right away, ruining vets runs or being kicked. And then, when the max lvl (30) is reached (wich is REALLY fast, we are talking a few days, maybe a week for the average player), no judging on the lvl for being accepted in runs. Only skill will matter, and that is seen only in-game.

Given that, I find the VT2 approach to be greatly superior, since often VT1 lvl didn’t picture good enough the real skill lvl of the player.

Then, the question of abilities. I don’t see them as Thor’s hammer as you say, but as a new tool in our arsenal. Why would they be overpowered ? Some might have been during the beta, but they are being balanced away, the nerf bat striking hard some of them (hunter one-shotting bosses, kerillian regen, etc…), showing Fatshark doesn’t fear the pressure of wich you speak, and, if they listen to the feedback we give them, they have no less their own idea of how their game should be and don’t compromise if they think the way it’s going displeases them. VT2 proposes new challenges and new threats, and adds some depth to the gameplay by adding these active abilities. There are 15 different (although you can argue some are really close to another), and you can only bring 4. As a group, this is already a strategic decision. In a random game with random people, it would be wise to go for the most versatile since you don’t know what other players will have taken. But active abilities are there to reward you if you use them at the right time, and being able to turn tides, where in VT2, contrary to VT1, stormvermin can kung-fu 3 combo chase you, not even talking of other horrors that run after your hide.

So my question is : why would VT1 be played long after VT2 is ? I would understand if you said that you prefer VT1, and are comfortable with playing the game you know, rather than being used to the new VT2 and getting new habits for a game that, if similar, feels different in many ways (combat similar but not really the same, needs an adaptation from VT1 vet habits), and I would be fine with it. No offense intended, but it feels like you are the embodiment of the fear of losing what you know, and some of us (including me) embody the hope of it becoming more than it already is.

I really loved VT1, and would love to play it again, but I think VT2 is meant to be an improvement to the franchise, adding depth and complexity to the solid base of VT1. I’d rather the devs invest time and going their all on VT2, than continuing producing DLCs for VT1 (but well, both at the same time would be even better :D).

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you can already see the power creep.

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I see balance changes needed in highest difficulty (champ may stay as it is, so average players can get maximum lvl loot). I don’t see power creep. If you read the whole post you are quoting, you would have seen that in Legend there are some passages that are too easy, and some others that are too difficult.

Legend wasn’t playable on pre-order beta, so it’s been 2 days that this difficulty is playable, and it’s natural that imbalances are left in it. The devs will work on that. Why did they not include Legend in the beta is a mystery, but my point stands.

So in your opinion in 1 year Vt2 will break and is the same as Vt1? But you still play VT1?
I’m really getting confused. O_o If they’re broke games why do you keep playing them? O_o
If there’s a power rating system to block low powered players into high tier battles, then the kick is not needed we can all start a new character whenever and we all start from lvl one.
Every game ‘dies’ eventually but not due to insane high tiers vs. low, they die cause player base leaves, that’s the only reason. CS is the blandest, lamest excuse for a FPS or multiplayer game game I’ve ever seen or played and people have been playing that for years. XD

Once the player base hits the maximum power of 600 and got the orange items there is no longer any difference between them. There is no Monty Haul effect in VT2.

nekomata - your reading comprehension skills are lacking.

Maybe so… but I think all your arguments are moot, for example when you say:

''in VT1 there are already issues with getting public groups together.
gear - is it good enough to match the difficulty level chosen?
level - is it high enough that one can safely assume a stranger has learned how to actually play?

this issue is going to be magnified with vt2. now you can add in skills.’’

You are clearly failing to see that a higher level player can most likely carry the other 3 noobs on rookie dificulty. -_-

You fail to see that the higher level has no incentive to do so as they are farming gear.

Yeah higher lvl player farming on rookie, sounds like a hell of a player. XD

And wasn’t you’re whole point in the first place that the game was too easy, that mobs are too easy and weapons too strong.
Why would a higher level player be farming for gear on a rookie tier mission? O_o

For a game that apparently doesn’t pose enough of a challenge to play and die( even though you can one-hit mobs, and that’s a bad thing ) with others, why not just , private party and play with bots, farm alone if you don’t like people, running off or making mistakes.

I think you’re just mad 'cause the comunity is shifting to Vermintide 2 and you’re feeling like the time and money invested on Vermintide 1 was a waste. O_o

P.S. - I thought farming gear means you must finish the level and therefore help the party. but maybe you just like to play alone, just solo/bot everything dude, You’ll be fine, or get a refund and go back to Vermintide 1. You do no want to see and I just want to play. :wink:

Why not join the Fatshark Discord https://discord.gg/K6gyMpu