A case to not Delay, and other thingss

Spent some time reading through discussions and ideas and a surprising number of complaints before I decided to create an account and give my two cents.

First things first. To Fatshark, and its cadre of amazing employees:

Allot of people are going to post negative reviews, and demands for refunds if you dont fix whats “wrong” with the game. They are gonna bemoan that just because your small doesnt mean you get a free pass. They will say tenceat and corporations only care about milking the money, and thus, you will release garbage just to take other peoples money. They will push that their idea of whats expected of the game is the only way to be succesful. Streamers will make video after video bashing the game daily resulting in mass views of those videos. (Likely while still actively playing the game, as we have sent recently with New World and Diablo Immortal, every streamer posting tear down videos was universially mocked in the comment sections for this. All to get more views and more money.)

My advice: Ignore every single one of them.

There is a big difference between being constructively critical and simply tearing down the game because it doesnt do what you believe it should do. Learn the difference, and ignore the latter.

I will leave it at that.

Now, on to a further look into Darktide and my experience with the Closed Beta, as well as addressing many things found in the forums.


I have two main thoughts on the subject of connections and people experiencing crashes.

Thought #1 This was a bare bones beta test, and as such probably didnt make use of the full active servers that the game will actually run at launch. This is fairly common among Beta Tests. I cant think of any beta tests ive ever been part of that didnt somehow suffer from connection issues, that at release werent there. Something to consider before one complains about them. Point out certainly just to be sure, but be aware that betas really in part are just load testing on seperate servers to collect data.

Thought #2: This one is gonna make some people mad. Perhaps the crashes you were experiencing might be due in part to your own computer. I think in todays age we often forget that a game running is a two way street, it being coded to run correctly, and your computer correctly running it. I have had game crashes that were the fault of my computer on many games. Everything from cache clearing, driver update, to the operating system not being able to read its own commands. So before you yell about how farshark needs to fix the game crashing, send them the report, but also make sure your own computer is running correctly.

If my 5th Gen Asus, with a 1080 card computer that has been patchworked together from 4 other computers didnt experience a single game crash: But my buddies 3000 series card and newest gen CPU crashed multiple time, i am inclined to believe that maybe, just maybe its not only the games fault.

(I am sure ill get allot of comments about that…)

Now to gameplay and Mechanics. This is primarly stuff ive seen others complain about, or stuff that your Commisar wont execute you for, but definitely would correct you on. Bugs and such will be reported elsewhere.

Ranged Combat:
I think its fine. While i certainly understand that certain parts of enemies and enviroment is dark and can be difficult to shoot accurately, I will admit parts of certain maps are dark, and hard to aee (Honestly dont mind it because its so immersive. Ill take that over min/max optimization of always able to see but loose immersion) I would push a simple resolution.

When in doubt, shoot anyways.

Seriously, if you cant tell if its an enemy or not just shoot at or near it anyway. Especially with Veteren, he has so much ammo. This isnt a tactical, pie and lean around corner shooter. This is 40K! Just shoot at things and keep moving. If it was a statue: Congrats! you got another life sentence. If it was a bad guy: Congrats! One less to deal with.

I think ranged weapons and combat is just fine. Yes some could argue that lasgun has to much recoil. I can agree, toning it down some would be appreciated.


This one is easy, the Blitz ability needs a shorter charge time. Thats it, everything else about it is fine. Takes waaaaay to long to charge up though. Often wasted by someone just shooting the enemy.

Zealot/Veteren Weapon:
This is simple as well. The Flamer should not be a Zealot exclusive weapon. Flamers are standard optional weapons that normal guardsman have access to. Give the preacher an Inferno Pistol instead, same thing just sized different, and let veteren have access to the flamer. Heck, let the zealot have the bolt pistol exclusive, thats a weapon most guardsman wouldnt ever see anyways, and most of the time is used by commissars, officers or preachers! Want extra spice give the preacher the hammer and the two handed eviserator chainsword as exclusive weapons.

5th Class and Specializations:

Alright, allot of people already are talking about adding another class, and i would say about 80% of the ones suggested are already there, via background choices or through your own personal view.

Scions/Storm Troopers/Karskin: These are already the veteren. You even had the choice of selecting Schola Progenia as an option for background.

Sister Repentia/Any Sister of Battle: This is the preacher already appearance wise, and style wise. You also have background options for joining the militant arm of the church. Soooo If you want to do Sister of Battle, just choose that background and class.

Commissar: Rather than a disgraced prisoner, you have someone who ensures all these criminals find redemption. Either by death, or completing the overall mission. Lots of people have suggested ideas so i wont go to far into it.

Inquisitoral Acolyte/Throne Agent: This i think is an even better option than Commissar. I could go into great detail, but if your curious just look up either. This could be another class that boosts the party. Lore wise the story is the perfect place for an aspiring Inquisitor to not only earn his stripes, but find his own acolytes and connections. Would allow for wide range of weapon options that convicts certainly wouldnt be handed. Access to a huge array of deadly relic weapons.

As far as specializations of whats there already, its almost limitless. All 4 classes can go almost anywhere, and we just have to be patient and see.

For those complaining “VT2 has 15 classes!!! Darktide is just a downgrade from that.” I would suggest that you come to terms with the fact that all the classes of VT2 were basically the same class and more cosmetically different than they were mechanically different. Especially the ones it had for the majority of the game. You could spend 1000 hours playing kruber, switch to any of the others and still be just as effective in very similar ways. The game play loop would be fundamentally the same between the two. Just because it had more classes doesnt mean its better.

Weapons: This is short and sweet. We dont know all the weapons added. Seen to many people suggest adding certain weapons when we dont even know whats already there. So lets wait till release that way we have a whole picture of whats actually there. You might be suggesting something already in the game.

Overall that is all I got, but as i think of more ill add it in the comments and i invite you ( if you made it this far) to post your views in the comments and why you believe the game shouldnt be delayed. Dont let the loudest and angriest voices push the game into next year because it doesnt meet their made up expectations.

And Remember
No sacrifice is too great. No treachery too small.


You try to defend the game with a talk about possibilities and hopes. The criticism is aimed at what people actually saw. No specializations, no interesting classes (the fact that classes in VT2 were not that special is no excuse for Darktide!) nor skills.

The thing about class system is that you can introduce mechanics that will make playing that class feel special. If you say that in VT2 all characters were basically the same class than how can you defend Darktide? Its four characters that can barely count as one class!


You will notice at no point did i give Darktide a free pass nor outright defend its class system.

I called out people saying VT2 had more classes and treating that like its a good arguement to bash Darktide. Its not, just because a game had more classes doesnt make it automatically better. Especially given how the game fundamentally works. You could play all of VT2 in its entirety and never use a ranged weapon. Why? Allot of that influence is because of the setting. Fantasy. Melee is the major standard in those settings.

Darktide setting is a true hybrid of melee and ranged. Both being equally effective depending on the situation. So yes, there is a big difference between how the Veteren spends his time and how the Ogryn spends it.

I could point out that Bardin and Kerilian were in essence the same class. So did it really have one more class?

Again, saying something else or an older game had more classes is not a legitimate arguement. If you want to point out class flaws that is fine, but bemoaning that VT and VT2 had more classes is effectively just stating a fact and not an actual arguement. Thats called an inductive arguement.

“More classes are better
VT2 has 15 classes.
VT2 is better.”

Your making your own conclusion possible. Versues the orher way around. Its not a actual arguement for VT2 being better.

Sometimes criticism is harsh. I haven’t seen that much bashing, so much as angry perhaps sparse on details criticisms. Criticisms, nonetheless.

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Criticism can be harsh. We agree.

My statements are for those bashing because its not what they wanted.

Like i said, Constructive criticism is good, the other thing is not.

Well, the first premise should sound something like:

P1: Game with more classes is better than game with less classes

But I don’t think people are saying that. It’s not the case if VT2 is a better game. People were promised deeper customization and they didn’t get one. So now they are asking how is that deeper (in comparison to VT2)

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But we did get deeper customization.
Darktide Customization:
Freely choose gender
Freely choose hair
Freely choose skin tone
Freely choose scars
Freely choose tattoos
Freely chooae height
Freely choose eye color
Freely choose place of birth
Freely choose background through multiple stages.
Freely choose class
Freely choose weapons (with minor restrictions)
Freely choose cosmetics

VT2 customizations
Freely choose pre determined characters with their own personalities and weapons restrictive to only them, and very little changeable options for appearance.

Literally the customization option arguement makes no sense. People are angry because they wanted every aspect of their character cuatomization to fundamentally alter how the character functions. That was never promised.

There is way more customization in Darktide, but people had preconceived beliefs about what that meant, and now are demanding more. And like you making the absurd arguement that VT2 had deeper customization when it actually had almost none.

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What was promised and what was expected are often different. Some fault naturally lies with both parties, but fault isn’t a useful metric. I think many people share my criticism that the talent trees are what need work, no one is complaining that the aesthetic character customizations aren’t enough.

Some of these trees are ripped directly from VT2, and have no more depth, choice, or breadth than they did in VT2. That’s where the customization is lacking.

And like you making the absurd arguement that VT2 had deeper customization when it actually had almost none.

Where did I make that argument? I just stated what I belive is making people make the statemets they are making. FS was talking about deeper character customization in a post on steam. It was mentioned next to “new class system”. So no wonder some assumed this customization will have to do with skills of each class.

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Unless you meant it a different way. But this statement seems to imply that Vermintide had better custimization options. That conclusion came from previous statements as well.

I agree with this in part. I still stand that gameplay wise while as a whole similar in allot of ways, there is enough distinction still that i am fine with it. If you stand by that the trees should be more in depth, i dont think thats a bad thing.

I think you extrapulated my lack of comment or my comment that simply saying it has more classes isnt a good arguement.

Could current Darktide class trees be expanded on? sure. Are they bad? No. Do they look very much the same as VT2? Yes. All true statements.

I only ever said that simply stating that vt2 had more classes wasent a good argument, and nor is it a constructive criticism. I never said darktide didnt need to improve.

The original post was made to call out people complaining simply to complain, like the dozens of posts demanding the game be delayed because its “unplayable”

I don’t understand where this is coming from. How is it not constructive, nor a good argument? Darktide is a notable step down in active abilities right now as a result of four archetypes as opposed to four archetypes with 3-4 careers for each. The criticism is that we should have something to fill that content gap, especially given we were apparently told there would be a new class system.

What we saw isn’t a new class system, it’s a previously absent character system.


To include a statement ive seen on the forum.

“Darktide is a downgrade of what we had in vt2, because vt2 had 15 classes and now we only have 4.”

Vt2 had the benefit of a predecessor and years of the community voting and picking ideas of the classes they wanted to see. The result, a 2nd game that had many of those ideas implemented.

Darktide cannot be compared to vt2 in that same light. Especially in this age we know its likely to be more live service focused.

And again, just because another similar game has more of one thing doesnt mean its better. Its an inductive arguement. As far as it not being constructive criticism its the same thing.

Vt2 had 15 classes. Thats a fact.

Darktide has 4 classes. Thats a fact.

Games with more class options are better. That is an assumption.

You cant be critical of a game based off an assumtpion that not everyone agrees is fact.

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This doesn’t hold water, though, Darktide’s talents so far are taken from VT2. VT2 is as much a predecessor to Darktide as VT2 was to VT1. In a perfect world I’d love to agree, but since they’re treating this as an extension of the ‘tide’ franchise if you will, I simply can’t. Sure, specific feedback doesn’t exist for a 40k representation in the case of specific lore archetypes people would want, but that doesn’t excuse a reduction of content.

I apologize if this comes off as harsh, but the games absolutely can be compared.

As for whether 4 or 15 is better, sure. That’s an assumption. However it is 100% factual to say that there are less build options in Darktide currently, since talents remain practically unchanged alongside the reduced number of classes. This is not an assumption. Context matters.

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well yes they already mentioned their plan for more classes.
currently one class per quarter that’s a lot faster than v2
but to even catching up to 15 will take almost 3 years

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Sure. If you want to agree to premise that all of it is an extension of a tide franchise. We can.

While yes, they changed the talents a little to account for the differences,(toughness, no temp health, corruption) We can agree that in broad strokes the two games talent teees are as close to identical as they can get.

Why is that bad though? Vt2 skill trees work very well for the game. So if darktide uses the same thing why is that a bad thing to use something that clearly works?

Though i can understand your reasoning as having a reduction in content. Factually we have less talents, and activated abilities.

Your own statement shows that there is a lack of feedback of what people would want to see. But then you say at the end it doesnt matter. How could they add arch types, talents, or skills if there is no player feedback data for them to build and test off of?

Vt2 wouldnt have been what it was without vt1. And just like back then, it will have to have player testing and feedback to ensure that they add things to the game that are worthwhile.

To be clear, yes i would have prefered to have seen more class options at launch. Despite that, i am still keeping my pre order and playing. And once the new classes start rolling out, ill be excited.

People dont keep playing because the have limitless progression. They play with their friends and if the moment to moment gameplay is engaging. Darktide nailed that.

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The same way most developers make a game. They execute on a vision to make a better game than the last. You don’t need players to tell you what to make, that’s asinine.

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I would say they did that in spades. If you disagree with me thats fine. Its not going to change where i stand.

As asinine it is to expect game developers to have player feedback before making a game. Its just as asinine to say A whole new game, with whole new character concepts, set in a whole different universe with many times the amount of weapons is a reduction on content and therefore worse, purely because it doesnt have as many classes.

A whole new game in a franchise with fewer build options than the previous entry, inflated numbers with weapon variants, fewer game modes…

This works both ways, there isn’t a point to boiling things down to look better for our side.

We can be critical only when we base our criticism only on things that everyone agrees on? Thats a weird idea …

This is an assumption not everyone agrees on… . So this is false?

Yet another assumption someone can disagree with. So that is also incorrect?

I envy you beacuse of the classes I saw so far I couldnt care less about new ones (if the base classes are so undeveloped).

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