2.0 - Shade changes make no sense to me

My dude, I don’t think it was something they “pushed through too quickly.” I think Hedge was assembling a list of changes and forgot to add a change that was present. He knew about it, just missed it on an honest mistake. Happens to the best of us. You ever made a mistake?

I’ll agree with quickkill here; the stealth duration was nice but not necessary for her to operate at the top tier. It removed some of her utility (which I believe was the point). She had too much and she was reigned in; I’ve not suffered any problems by it and I’m still equally as potent on Shade, so I can’t see where the issue is. I suppose this might simply be a difference in preference :slight_smile:

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FS was aware of this when they published the 2.0.9.1 patch notes, it could have been included then, there was certainly enough space. I don’t think it was malicious omission though.

I just don’t understand why she needed that utility removed, and at such a drastic reduction (I have a conspiracy theory that involves versus mode). Otherwise, different strokes for different folks. :man_shrugging:

It had already been covered in closed beta patch notes multiple times. They seem to have forgotten to add it on release. An oversight, but this was tested in beta a lot.

Versus mode will be an entirely different game if I remember correctly, not balanced around current at all.

Also, if anything. It would have been to stop shades from cheesing high level weaves. They could chain back stabs during the beta, allowing them to stay invisible for ages on control points with a base 10 second invisibility.

None the less, as an Elf main, I prefer this version of shade 100% over the 1.6 counterpart. It’s something they got bang on in my opinion.

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Why are you still here?

Fatshark_Martin said in the AMA:
“No, Adventure Mode is and will always be the core experience of Vermintide 2 and should take precedence.”

So I sure hope that’s not true, or else someone is lying.

Yes indeed. This thread is like the one about huntsman and bow. Keep explaining that changes are justified, but there is no will to understand.

So what is discussed: longer cool down: reduce godmod dps, and survabity, now you have to choose between coodown and damage.

Ult duration: reduce survabity: before you could just vanish go away, look for art and book, and eventually pop out. Now you have to choose between mobility (take dash) or survabity: you disappear once again.

About the last one, this is even more powerful than a longer duration as you can accomplish your job and reposition.

So it is a pretty fair trade, and she is still really good, but not mandatory (we just finished Fow Cata without shade.Funnily enough, with hunstman and bow instead).

Last but not least, how can you compare RV and shade ult?

Because this is a public forum and people don’t leave just because you disagree with them. Otherwise, what’s the point of discussion on a forum?

This is the excerpt from a bug report about the Shade changes:

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So, you want shade to have the highest DPS AND best utility in the game with a short ULT cooldown? How OP do you want the shade to be? FS might need to add a red cape cosmetic for her lol. If you need that much of a handicap then maybe try dropping a difficulty.

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Chaos, my dude, keep it civil. We’re here to chat about the argument and the foundation it stands on, not the person building it.

@Blood_Shart, you keep saying that you don’t understand why Infiltrate needed to be reigned in when it was more capable in every category (yes, damage is included in that). The key was to give it at least one weakness while then allowing someone to make a choice of how to spec their Shade.

I think FatShark nailed it with Shade; I agree with Smoker.

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Because everyone has a right to express their opinion and everyone is entitled to their own opinion on this forum, including you. But you need to understand that people will disagree with you. That’s where discussions start. I’m guessing being a moderator is another reason I tend to pop up in nearly all threads.

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Meant it as a legit suggestion. Wasn’t trying to be a prick, but I guess I can see now how it can be taken that way. My bad.

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And you? If you don’t like different opinions, forum is not a god place to be.

You want to do your job and reign in Chaos then? Or is that sort of “git gud” commentary what I should be expecting from the community you aim to foster?

The fact that you’re comparing RV ULT and Shades ULT is extremely worrying. If you can’t see which one is far more powerful, then I suppose theirs zero point in even discussing balance based around it.

I’m here because I want to have a discussion about why Shade utility was cut in half, on top of getting a burst damage reduction. And why one of those decisions is really well-thought out and executed cleanly, and the other one is slapdash at best with no supporting talents or apparent reason for it.

Smoker is here because he wants to be snarky and insinuate my brain is somehow not elf-big enough to grasp something that is obvious to him, despite offering nothing of substance and then saying there’s zero point in discussing it.

What about the rest of my comment? Do you think one class should be the best at DPS and utility?

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What chaos? People are asking others to “keep it civil”. The only off topic I see is responses to you basically telling me to get lost.

None the less, I’ve said my opinion, I’ll leave it to you guys to throw the ball back and forth. Just keep it within the forum guidelines and be respectful to each other.

EDIT: @Torantolis aha, I see.

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@Chaos5715 owned his comment… didn’t you see that up above? It was grade-A modesty; he wasn’t trying to be rude.

(Also, smokey-lad, I think that’s what Blood-boi was referring to)

And we are discussing the utility portion; but you can’t make an ability and only focus on utility without also focusing on how that utility is used in tandem with the rest of the character’s kit.

Smoker isn’t insinuating anything; he’s really well learned in Vermintide and has the ins-and-outs covered. What he’s trying to say is that there are certain features to the character which can make them very powerful and that he’s confused why you are undervaluing the Active-Skill differences in Cool-Down and Damage, both of which are considerably superior for Shade, and how improving the invisibility timer for Shade only amplifies her superiority in other fields by not having a weakness in the character’s kit.

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Shade used to be able to do several things with her Ult, one of which was a lot of damage. She could reposition, res, interact with objectives, all useful things. Her ability to fire from stealth was removed, her cooldown reduction was removed, AND the Stealth Duration was halved. I agree that it seems very heavy handed and disjointed.

What’s the point of a Talent that reduces the cooldown on 5 seconds of invisibility?

The utility was already reduced by removing the fire from stealth talent. I can’t speak to Shade’s current performance that much, I know I would certainly miss the CDR to be able to reliably delete Chaos Warriors.

The weakness in her kit is that she dies to a stiff breeze. She is a fragile melee class, I see no problem allowing her extreme damage and a modicum of utility. Ironbreaker has good utility, great survivability, and sacrifices damage. Mercenary is well-rounded in all aspects. I disagree what Shade was massively imbalanced to the point of cutting her stealth in half.

Ultimately I’m not going to cry about this change, but it is baffling; and gives me more concerns about how the developers view the game rather than concerns about the class itself.

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But the point is they were not heavy handed. Before patch shade was the most powerful character.
She could 1shot kill bosses, drop Aggro and wander away, had infinite health, and amo. And all of this pretty much all the time.

And she still can, and is still really strong, one of the best maybe, but the battle wizard of course.

And I want to point out, some of the new talents make her somewhat better than before.

To conclude, I think they nailed it. FS is often criticised and accused to not know their game, but I think their change are often on point (bugs too sadly) given time. One other exemple of this is the first gutter runner wave on Cata Fow. Adding 3 gas rats was a really ingenious idea to make this wave really difficult without much more.

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I agree with every point you’ve made here.

The biggest sign pointing to this being a band-aid is that this change apparently came in the 7th beta patch. Now I don’t have access to any of the beta forums or notes because they are wiped/hidden from me, but it seems like these talents were already designed and implemented before the stealth reduction was applied. This is why none of them synergize with where Shade utility is at now. We can also infer that this change must be in relation to an issue specific to not just 2.0 combat which was part of the beta from the get-go, but something specific to WoM (most likely weaves as has been pointed out elsewhere) in that caused this change.

That runs counter to the AMA Fatshark gave that says that adventure mode was the core experience around which the game was going to be balanced.

What they did is reduce the CDR talent a bit. It could be abused before to trivialise any map, because you where always invisible. It could be exploited in weaves but in regular maps too.

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