I feel like it’s easy to only think about the boss in the context of people specifically choosing to do that map, too. If he’s going to be in the normal QP map pool, I think it’s reasonable enough that you should be able to reliably build for boss damage against him, not just have your build heavily neutered by what’s effectively just RNG.
If boss killers making bosses trivial is something they want to avoid, those builds should be nerfed, not this weird workaround solution.
He’s not too bad outside that last phase, though I think if there’s going to be so many adds he needs to be a bit less aggressive overall. Reducing the chain CC would be nice too, that’s just not fun to play against in any game. He’s already strong enough without the flies just being a budget hookrat, and without throwing you around the arena constantly in the last phase.
I think the boss himself is amazing, But I think he gets too many adds on top of all the things he does himself. You barely have any time at all to ever lay a finger on him, killing the flies. This makes him die very slowly when the team is constantly killing adds
And then his final phase if your not ready to burn him down quickly can get messy real fast. I honestly don’t think he should continue to get adds at this point, the combination of his attacks, blocks throwing you across the room, and explosions to dodge + Adds to dodge and kill yea just too much at once.
Love the map, love the new Lord (hopefully Spinemanglr and Bovar get a bit of love!) but the Map is super long, He is perfect, but his adds need toned down a little
@Fatshark_Hedge if Fatshark’s goal is avoid that a lord is killed in one second… they should work around those careers that can do it. The option you have chosen fixes that problem BUT it makes other problems. It makes the boss very tough (and since his great damage he doesn’t need to be so tough) and it makes “useless” those careers who are “not-broken” bosses killer (like Huntsman: for sure he doesn’t kill bosses in one second).
This is true. The lord does different AoE attacks that almost covered the entire arena… while we have to fight an infinite horde. And we must remember how much he’s tough.
p.s moreover imho there should not be shielded enemies.
The third phase should probably lose the fire rings, then you can kite the boss, slay the adds and someone might be able to do some damage too.
Or make the rings not be in the same place just like they are when he1s in the middle.
The “damage cap” is just damage reduction that simply comes from “lord damage reduction”, it is shared with Burblespue, Rasknitt, and Deathrattler (yikes), the superarmored lords have “armoured boss damage reduction” which is quite a bit less damage reduction because they already have superarmor. Berserker armor type for Nurgloth is a really odd choice if it is intentional, but Huntsman is not more overshadowed by this choice; berserker armor type over monster armor type hurts Bounty Hunter( minus the shotgun blast) and Shade quite a bit more (50-60% less damage) over Huntsman which suffers ~30% less damage with longbow.
If you want I can test weapons/builds against Nurgolth. ^ ^
I’ve already tried a lot and most things barely scratch him.
Huntsman is far from overshadowed, his damage is quite respectable and one of the highest even with Empire Longbow and I mentioned Blunderbuss because it’s the best boss killer against Nurgolth.
Most of WS damage comes from Piercing shot, one miss and you lose all your DPS.
Hagbane DOT and Serrated shots deal “0” damage unless under the effect of a strength potion.
(Making Hagbane WS worst weapon against Nurgolth)
Most of Bounty Hunter’s DPS comes from DoubleShotted, one miss and you lose it.
Crossbow and Hunter repeater is respectable though.
(Used some Lua code @Grimalackt sent me to change halescourge Hp/Armour type to the same as Nurgolth)
And this is the problem. I say just completely forget about this and ditch it in the bin, where it belongs. This is probably the #1 limiter to more extensive end events or intricate boss battles. You want Nurgloth to be as weak as Skarrik, where he gets taken out by 2 BH ults, literally before he even stands up? You want him to be as weak as Cheekspreader, where he gets bullied around by ults and bombs, and gets taken out by conc Shade? Finally we get a decent boss battle that is fun, with different mechanics and phases, one that doesn’t die immediately and isn’t a complete push over and you want to nerf him because of some arbitrary balance that apparently must exist. If someone is REALLY THAT DESPERATE for an easier chest or vault, then why doesn’t that person just run the same mission over and over again? Do you think most people really care for getting vaults? Is it really that bad that a mission is harder than others? That the boss is harder than the others? Do people really mind that the mission is going to take slightly longer, or that it’s slightly harder?
no-one wants bosses to be that easy, but there’s a big gap between dying before the fight even starts, and being just arbitrarily way way harder than any other boss in the game, with more mechanics, more health, more damage resist to normal boss killers, more CC and a bunch of adds. He’s clearly too much currently, particularly for what already feels like a decently long map.
if you make a map that’s way harder than most, people will just suicide to avoid it rather than waste half an hour on a run that goes nowhere. we’ve seen this in the past already.
To the degree this boss currently is, yes. Why wouldn’t they? For the average person who’s not in cata, if they want extra difficulty they can just move up to the next step. If they don’t want that extra difficulty, having a map that’s way more likely to cause you to spend a bunch of time only to lose books or wipe (because it’s an absolute pain to clutch this boss with almost every build) isn’t doing anything but being even more RNG added to the already insane loot grind.
The reason people don’t just speedrun bell over and over again is because they enjoy actually playing the game too, and getting some variety. You could allow for variety without also having obvious difficulty spikes.
Only problem I think the boss has is the last phase. If he couldn’t use the knockback attack when an eruption ring is out and the add spawns had just a little more time between them, he wouldn’t feel so unfair. When you’re the highest dps and being chased down the entire last phase, getting knocked into mobs or eruptions with barely any time to land any attacks it doesn’t feel very engaging. You just have to rely on your teammates to chase him down and do some damage but they’re likely fending off some adds themselves.
The entire problem of the end event and bossfight tuning is, that the reward at the end is not progress based, but win based.
If you could get up to a general vault for reaching the end event and then upgrade it to a emperor by winning said event / fight, there would be no map skipping fearing spending 20-30 minutes in a map to get nothing at the end because the other players cannot perform at the adequate level.
As your videos show, one again, Huntsman has the lowest damage compared with the other bosses killers… exactly what I was saying.
Make it a berserker is simply nonsense. I’m not saying he must be oneshotted by one single ult, but we need an halfway. He’s already the lord with the highest damage and the hardest attacks to avoid.
Moreover the berserker type afflicts some careers/weapons much more than other ones.
As you can see from the above videos, Huntsman has the lowest damage.
Sure, this system Fatshark chosen is not perfect… but nothing is. If people runs Cata QP is because they want X level of difficulty. We can’t suddenly have an incredible spike of difficulty.
This is happened months ago with Skippergate… indeed most players just left.
Apart this, you miss the thread’s points.
The boss could also have 99999999999999999999HP, but the MAIN problem is the BERSERKER TYPE. Because it hits certain weapons/careers much more than other ones.
I neved said it must be killed by one single ult, but we need an half way. This Lord is greatly superior under every aspect compared with every boss;
The Lord has some objective problems, because it’s unfair if he throws me directly into the explosion;
Piercing Shot Waystalker has the highest DPS.
Had to cut videos short because of the file size but the Huntsman videos had an extra ult straight after + Blunderbuss would have dealt 30% more damage once past 50% health.
Double Shotted only performed so well due to the strength pot where Blunderbuss performs well against the berseker armour type. ^^
As said the problem is Huntsman + Longbow, because it means I should be a bosses killer… or better that bosses are my niche. The new Lord steals this niche.
I’m happy for BlunderMan, but it’s another speech.
So there’s no headshot damage reduction? Couldn’t tell if he had armour similar to Maulers on his head.
Also in response to the thread:
I don’t think he needs nerfing. However, the sprint attacks on adds in his last phase can be frustrating on lower Stamina/Block Cost Careers. i.e sprint attacks outside of block angle
This is the first Boss, which feels like it requires more than one ranged Career with a STR Pot to kill.
As written my main point is NOT about how much tough the Lord must be… But HOW Fatshark made him tough. The way they have chosen.
Because everyone knows about bosses killed in one second by BH or Shade… But Nurgloth penalizes Huntsman (wich had a legit power vs bosses… useful but not broken) more than BH, WS and Shade. Don’t you believe me? See the above videos.
All this because they decided to choose the berserker type… Wich is very strange and creates disparities.
This is my point.
Then I could continue saying that how much Lords must be tough is a metter of preferences. But you can’t say that Nurgloth isn’t 100 times stronger and tougher than the other Lords. They are not well balanced.
I agree he’s tougher than other Bosses. And I’m personally fine with that. The map + bossfight was a blast for me, and I wouldn’t like to see him nerfed. As a Lord level Chaos Sorceror empowered by Demon, he has every right to be that tough lorewise, and the gameplay was very enjoyable (in a masochistic kinda way I guess). This map altogether and trying to beat it is one of the things I enjoy about Vermintide. And take in account we as a community just haven’t gotten used to this one yet. When everybody had some practise it’ll probably feel a little easier. I fully recognise the difficulty disparity though, and I understand how most players don’t want that in quickplay. I’d be fine with a measure like removing the map from the quickplay rotation to justify keeping it as is.
As to the general point about BH and Shade’s ability to trivialize Bossfights (and Monsterfights as well): I agree that is a problem solved by either tweaking those classes, or giving those enemies a damage per hit limit like Rasknitt has. Not by changing the enemies in a way that affects other classes.
As to Nurgloth’s armor type specifically: I’m pretty neutral to that. Consistency’s sake and class balance (including relative to each other) is one thing, but diversity is another. As long as the overall challenge posed by him is unchanged, I could go either way on that.
Somewhere I agree, somewhere I don’t agree… but nice post. Finally someone who read what I wrote (instead of just saying “Do you want a Lord killed in one second?”… the average and inapposite comment I received). Thank you.
For example we agree that Nurgloth is harder than the other ones… but we would apply a different solution. Imho it would be a shame lose it through QP. It would be better work around the Lord… apart the berserker tier (that I will talk about it below), don’t you find that, during the last phase, you can take some unfair and not avoidable damage?
The only part of your post that honestly I don’t like is this one:
As to Nurgloth’s armor type specifically: I’m pretty neutral to that.
How can you be neutral if a change thought to “stop” BH and Shade… penalizes more Huntsman (there are the videos) than the other two careers?
Because your claim is just wrong as described twice already by @James. Although you took the videos and just tried to formulate a new reality. So first off, for all who don’t want to scroll through the whole thread, here are the videos in question (post #26 in this very thread):
So everyone can watch this and get his own opinion. Now back to the claim that Huntsman is hit the hardest by the boss armor class of Berserker. Let’s concentrate on the third phase of the fight as phase 1 and 2 have lots of moments the boss stands still making These section rather easy. So let’s look at which classes or specific weapon combinations are hit the hardest by our tough fat friend being berserky:
Hagstalker: As shown in the video, without the use of a strength potion she literally does no damage. Hagstalker is undoubtly hit hardest by this.
Shade: Used to her pony trick of doing a large damage burst in a single attack she is second hardest. On Recruit with additional damage on headshots and from backattacks with Dual Daggers charged attack from behind, she does like 1/16 of damage. I think it is less actually. Still devastating for a class used to better results.
Bounty Hunter: Similar to Shade. While he can gain respectable results with double shot, he needs to achieve headshots for this. In phase 1 and 2 this is a non-issue. In the crowded phase 3 where the boss is constantly moving it is an issue. This is especially problematic due to the delay between pressing “F” and the actual shot being released. For most normal ranged weapons this issue does not appear. It is more or less unique to BH’s active skill. His guaranteed crit does help a bit though for inbetween shots.
So now to Huntsman. His boss and Lord damage comes from continuous above damage shots as such he is not losing nearly as much burst power as BH and Shade. His Blunderbuss is among if not even the best boss killer against Nurgloth. The videos show this. Other careers doing more damage require repeated headshots or hits in general WITHOUT misses. This is just unrealistic in phase 3 which makes Huntsman above average small damage burst so much easier to work as intended as he can miss a shot or two without losing something.
In addition, Huntsman has an Advantage over BH and Shade melee. With the Right Talent and his active skill he has the time to actual aim at Nurgloth and to get several clean shots at him. There are only two other careers which can perform repeated ranged attacks out of safezone: Shade and RV. While Shade can do this her damage output against Nurgloth is far below the Huntsman. For RV I don’t know. Has anyone actually tested this? Shotgun RV while using active skill trimmed on reload speed? Would be fun if RV becomes the new Nurgloth super killer.
So no, Huntsman is not hit hardest by this Lord set-up. In fact, he has a glaring advantage for the crowded Phase 3 over most other careers. You can go for max damage with the shotgun but even with the bow you are still doing above average damage.
As Fatsharks monitors the discussions here in the forum let me say again: This boss is very well-designed. Giving Lord Nurgloth Berserker-type armor is a good and elegant design choice because it makes a balanced team more favourable in comparison to pure dps while all careers still can play out to their strengths. The issue right now is that most people are not aware and not used to the specifics of this boss and can’t be bothered to move out of their comfort zones. This will change with the time, making him overall an easier experience than he currently is.
Also, as his last phase is literally him wildly swinging his death scythe the Berserker type also fits thematically. This said, Skarrik also has a similar phase when he uses his Twin swords/daggers(?). You could think about giving him the same armor or some kind of new hybrid between berserker and normal armor.
I can’t claim to be a number guys, but do like the idea of bosses having different types of armour for different phases, and so ensure that certain builds won’t constantly outperform others.
Thank you.
Once Nurgloth reaches the scythe phase Maim should be up. (30% damage to enemies below 50% hp)
There’s also no more invulnerable phases, the perfect time for potion usage.
A Huntsman could theoretically stay in perma stealth with concealed strikes + A potion and burst him down during the last phase. One of the highest DPS against Nurgloth and also the safest DPS during the 3rd phase.