Why Play another Difficulty than Recruit?

Warhammer: Vermintide 2 Gameplay Feedback
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Hi there heroes

seriously,
why play another difficulty that is not recruit?

there is nothing special in champ or legend

you have all maps, all characters, all careers, all skills, weapons, etc, etc in all difficulties

red items don’t change anything and are not needed for legend and for anything,

and you can craft any weapon in the forge

legend is bugged,

when there is only 1 or 2 heroes alive, you get 3 packmasters, 3 gutter runners, 3 blight stomers, 3 liches, and a chaos spawn,

I know right?

In recruit you get all the fun of killing rats and chaos and finish and get a reward, simple

legend is like a bugged recruit difficulty

thanks for reading

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This is some low quality bait. @derrame

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Lol, obvious troll is obvious. Suspected it from your first post about sienna weapons, but this? You can do better.

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Although this is clearly some badly thought out rant, it might promote some discussion about difficulty and the way legend is so stupidly punishing for single mistakes with little reward.

I’m having far more fun playing Champion difficulty in Twitch mode with deeds, purely because I feel it only takes a single stupid damage spike, or a single mistake by one of the players to bring you down in Legend and this just feels… unjust, especially when you got a good crew of homies. Now there is a place for Legend as a difficulty, but I think it isn’t as much pure “fun” as feeling as though you’re overcoming a real TIDE of enemies in Champion + deeds and Twitch. The slightly lesser damage caused by the enemies, and the slightly weaker bosses, put together with the “heads-up!” as twitch announces the wave of specials makes it all a bit more fun, and when we die it’s because we’ve been overcome by the enemy through attrition rather than assassins leaping tall buildings in a single bound to stab up a couple of people out of the blue.

There will, of course, be some people who can play Legend in twitch mode with tougher deeds and will come here to maintain that Legend is too easy. This is a very high skill level and is likely only 1% (or less) of the player base. Have some cake and tea :slight_smile:

Sifting through the OP mind-fart, Legend doesn’t actually offer you anything that recruit doesn’t. The power creep of weapons and talents means to find a challenge you need to move up the difficulties, but the general premise that “Legend is the same as recruit” is kind-of true. You get punished far harder in Legend, and the difficulty spikes can sometimes be seen from space, but the actual gameplay is the same.

With the rumoured changes to Deeds, I can see Legend being a bit more lively for many people. It’ll also stop the sanctioning of Onslaught and Deathwish as FS will tweak the deeds to fill that slot, but hey - I’m not a mod-fan anyhow.

The point about weapons in the OP is kind-a true too. I’ve got so many duplicate reds I can basically craft whatever max-stat weapon I fancy. Getting the skin in the Ubersreik DLC was a nice change to show a player earned their skin rather than RNG it.

So, in the grim hope of finding some discussion in this Troll’s Cave, how would you make each tier of difficulty offer something new?

Short of putting in new “Champion” enemies in Champion, and “Legendary” Enemies in Legend I’m not sure. I’m thinking minor characters that fit between a Chaos Warrior and a Boss.

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Yes I’m here. Difficulties are there for challenge. Who are you to deny me the challenge Cataclysm once gave me? You can still play on champion if you like.

The thing is playing Vanguard with x2 dmg x2 health is not really diverse and has no influence on lord and monster fights nor how cheap hordes are.

There isn’t actually much to do to fix it:
The dodge-time-window needs to be adjusted (I’m for removal in favor of turn rate limiters)
Stagger needs to be tuned down hard.
Temp hp needs to vanish or be reduced substantially.
And if you don’t want to be lazy weapon specialization needs to come back.

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I’m not denying you anything, props for being able to do Legend+Deeds+Twitch, but having a tougher difficulty that doesn’t offer anything other than even more specials and even more armour and only one hit to down an IB is only going to cater for a fairly tiny part of the player population.

A more diverse way of making things difficult is needed I think, and this might need some slanted thinking on the part of FS. Dividing the team in Trial of the Foolhardy was a fairly easy way of increasing tension and difficulty without making clanrats one-hit a Huntsman.

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I mean, he’s not wrong. most people seem to play legend because they want to play “pro” or something and it doesn’t really matter to them if they’re actually good enough to be playing there.

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The reward of legend is the challenge and difficulty, it’s true you don’t really get much from it in terms of loot or whatever. I think that’s more a failing of the loot system than anything else, play legend and you get to play on the slot machine with slightly better odds, yay? I would like to see some kind of bounty board a la vermintide 1 where you could work towards specific illusions or cosmetics and legend would get you there faster.

The downside, though, is when there are good legend specific rewards people who should not be playing legend keep jumping in to legend games because they want that sweet all-legend-clear cosmetic. They can’t even handle champion but they know a quick play group will carry them for at least one game. Whenever I do quick play, I can expect there will be at least one person we will have to carry… granted I like to look at it as just an added challenge, and I don’t think there’s anything to be done about it - a side effect of the quick play system and the popularity of V2 compared to the first game. But it can be frustrating at times.

With all that in mind, I prefer that the only real reward you get from legend is fun and challenge and bragging rights a la frames and such. Then the only people in legend will be the ones who genuinely enjoy the challenge and want to be there, and the people who just want to have fun in champ or below can do so without feeling like they’re missing out on meaningful content.

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Choose the level where the game its fun for you. I play on legend only for black armour, but its not fun for me, so much stress. So after I have the reward, I back to champion.

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The difficulties are there for challenge, certainly, but there is an argument to be made for those folks who aren’t up to it. Lord knows I love playing but I still struggle on Legend despite my affinity for reaction based games.

In addition to that: I, too, love the thrill of fighting swarms of enemies that I can feel like a badass against and that are hard to fight, but when it comes to “if anything in armor touches you you will explode” I feel vastly more stressed that entertained.

I think @Argonaut14 nailed it on the head; perhaps there is a way for us to extract the difficulties as offering something truly unique? Perhaps the first 1-3 are all the same with number increases, but Legend only has healing before the final encounter and Cataclysm is no resources ever? Perhaps those last difficulties aren’t used for anything other than the most epic of achievements?

The hard part about this is that offering a ‘coolness’ bonus to those players who can casually pull off Legend certainly makes less incredible players sad… I am always heartbroken when I see something super cool and realize I will never have it. Aside from the challenge itself, I don’t think you can offer a ton from more challenging difficulties.

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Legend is too easy :smile:

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where is the lie tho?

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Well, difficulty and reward are often linked although I think completing toughest difficulty is not the only way of rewarding players.

The reward system is an entirely different and inflammatory discussion in its own right, and I have appreciated getting my red skins for Ubersreik weapons by killing stuff in Legend rather than take hope for RNG fluke but I think I’m in favour of some other, entirely different rewards.

This still doesn’t change the fact that the majority of players can’t really cope with Legend, and only play it to try and get carried through to get their black armour. Is there a worthwhile ratio of;

Developing a higher difficulty ( this is realistically only going to be an even harsher tweak to spawn rates and damage settings) OR
Developing a more rounded experience for the majority of players.

If it is quite easy for the Dev’s to make an Epic difficulty setting for little dev time I’ve got no problem with that. If there are rewards for only completing things on this difficulty then that’s fine too although I can see the possibility for people who are lacklustre joining the top tier difficulty and really wrecking things for those who can handle it.

I hope that the changes to the deed system allow a much better way of calibrating difficulty to whoever is currently playing as a group, and that you can start a deed in the keep, have the portal open and allow players to join.

I REALLY hope they put the deed modifiers on display somewhere for those joining.

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i like my red gear, mostly from legend runs, so it isn’t a ‘little’ reward for me, being able to run around with shiny glowy weapons is all the rage for me

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Loads of people are getting FoW carries anyway not that its been out awhile and people know how to do it its fairly simple for people to 2 man, while dragging along a couple of potatoes. Same thing will happen if they add in another difficulty. The only stuff that makes legend or legend + stuff difficult is the game simply not working as intended, silent hookrats waiting behind corners, stuff doing overheads through walls and doors, 360 instant attacks from mobs, ect. Once you crank it up to deeds and onslaught and stuff like that, the more HP and added spawns is just more tedious than anything, for example, kiting 50 vs kiting 100 enemies is exactly the same, it just takes longer to kill 100, or kill 50 with higher hp, whatever, mechanically you are doing the same thing.

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I’ve been taking my mates into Legend lately to get them geared up. I try and teach them as we go but they die a lot. Anyone with 1,000+ hours in the game probably finds legend pretty easy, which is why we do hyper twitch deeds now. Which is fun sometimes, or boring as well. Some times you’ll get 3-4 bosses at the same time with a spawn of specials or CWs. Other times you’ll get regen and all you HP back while it keeps giving you potions. It’s kind of 50/50.

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Playing on lower difficulties is just left click spam. Champion is a bit better, the director goes haywire on it from time to time as well but damage received is too small as well for my taste.
If you can outpace damage received with temp hp, it’s not hard enough imo (sure, I could go without the respective talent but that;s another story:).
The main reasons for legend is the assured chance of vet items while being allowed to make a mistake and because I want to get better at the game. On Champ, any screw up that leads to loss of a tome or a grim usually means you won’t get emperor’s chest.
Also, mistakes are more costly. Unless I grind for something, I like the extra difficulty quite a lot, be it crazy spawns or hangers, be it me or another player. Bottom line, having it easy is boring most of the time.

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HAving it easy IS boring, I agree and there are (of course) arguments that Legend is easy especially - as @SmokerT69 says - people have 800-1500 hours in game no sweat.

Playing Twitch+deeds at champion has made me better at Legend. Better than I might’ve been just playing legend.

I’m attempting to say that there are other, more diverse ways of ramping up the difficulty that haven’t really been explored effectively yet. Cue deeds rework

@Revy has it right really, just cranking up the spawn rate and HP of the enemies doesn’t always make it more difficult, more punishing definitely, but more difficult?

Temp HP has to go too really.

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I don’t take this thread seriously, but I will say that most good players by now don’t play legend for the rewards but for the challenge. For example I got to a point where I would try to complete a legend no hit run, which I managed to do once on fort brachsenbrucke which just felt rewarding for me personally.

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