Why do you think review bombing Darktide is bad?

[Heretical_Cactus]

It can be considered delusional if it come from them thinking that the Admech was promised or had some clear expectation for.

Which there were any.

[eatingsand]

By what reasoning do you think their expectation is absolutely unfounded? If they think Admech would’ve been cooler what about that is not legitimate?
A review is subjective.

[Riku]

Applying Okrams Razor, as long as no evidence presents itself pointing towards it im going to assume there is none

[Sno]

Review bombing is a meaningless term for me.

You can have vocal minority who passionately hate an action the company took resonate with people who wouldn’t have otherwise left any review, and who decide, “You know what, screw that I’m also now angry enough to leave a thumbs down even if the rest is going well.”

Whether or not that is a grassroots action or a conspiratorial coordinated effort is completely up to the observer and their opinion on the core issue(s).

(Only exception would be bots in the new age.)

It’s just much easier to get that traction over something negative than something positive, which is true of most things. If you think a “review bomb” is happening the only recourse you have is to energize a counter positive review bomb.

“It’s the economy, stupid” - James Carville 1992

[DornIvanotic]

The people who review bomb ruined the game to begin with, that’s the honest answer.

[eatingsand]

In an ideal world, people would not take reviews at face value, and companies would properly explain controversial changes, or bundle them with fun additions. Thne they would have no reason to let them affect development.

In the current world, people leave a negative review because they don’t like a weapon being nerfed, Fatshark does or adds nothing to mitigate this, and instead backpedals on it completely.

In either case I’m not seeing people leaving negative reviews for things they don’t like as a problem. It’s how it’s handled. Steam reviews have existed for a long long time.

[Ragnarok101]

I understand you either have hilariously overwrought internet beef with me or are just fishing for a reaction, but please, enlighten me. How does ‘yeah if you’re mad leave a negative review and organize it’s not like they listen otherwise’ equate to ‘having no morals whatsoever’? I’m curious.

[Eviltreerat]

Remember what preceeded the big fixes around patch 13? The Steam ratings were negative. Not mixed, not trending down. Overwhelmingly negative. As in people saying “Do Not Buy” outnumbered all the rest combined. Now what happened when the reivews went back to mixed? Exact same issues again.

That is what it takes to get this third-rate studio to realize they screwed up big time. A proverbial brick wall of “if you keep doing this the money will be GONE”. One that pops up in their faces every single time they start feeling its safe to backslide. And frankly I doubt there are enough players here who actually care about the game enough to keep that sort watch going for years on end.

Me, I’ve given up. Xbox is due to arrive on Christmas and funds for HD2 set aside. Including purchasing a number of their warbonds. Money that FatShark could have had but threw away in favor of whatever ego trip they’ve been on.

[anon73549677]

@Eviltreerat

Remember what preceeded the big fixes around patch 13? The Steam ratings were negative. Not mixed, not trending down. Overwhelmingly negative.

lol this never happened https://steamdb.info/app/1361210/charts/

[Hammer_hold]

@Tarquelne

I get it. FS has wronged you, you’ll do what’s necessary to hurt them. I’m glad you admit it, and that you’re not - yet, at least - contemplating doing worse.

Now that is interesting, because I did not say anything that communicates that “I wish to hurt FS for the sake of hurting them”. This is just a straight-up lie. I said that the only way that FS is going to listen is if what people want will reflect in them loosing something (like numbers on Steam and/or money).

It was never about me being angry that FS has a predatory store or bad balance and wanting to get back at them for it. Now that I think about it, you trying to accuse me of “trying to hurt FS because I want some retribution”, feels like a projection of your feelings about the game and FS.

@Tarquelne

I think there’s something to be said for the idea that capitalism tends toward oppositional relationships, but also that “two wrongs don’t make a right.”

Based on the games like Helldivers 2, which had moments like SONY trying to control people (one wrong) and people fighting back by review bombing the game (second wrong), which ended with SONY not only backing up but eventually even releasing the rest of the blocked countries so they can play Helldivers 2 again, I do not agree with this statement.

It might sound like a quote you’re just supposed to nod and agree with without question, but when you think about it more it stops being so plain simple.

@Tarquelne

Unless this is war? Is it war?

Do you think it is? I cetainly don’t. Just because I bring up examples that are comparable to wars (like using revolution as an example) doesn’t mean I treat it with a level of seriousness I’d treat war with.

@Tarquelne

I’d just as soon move on to other games than start fighting a developer who’s disappointed me.

You do realize that by saying this, you’re just proving me right when I say that you’re projecting when accusing me of “wanting to take revenge against the devs that wronged me”, right? You used to do the very thing you are accusing me of right now.

@Tarquelne

I think I have the maturity to accept that my personal preferences aren’t of over-riding importance

What do you mean by saying “importance”? The importance for FS right now is to make more paid content that people will buy, because the last ones they did were very successful. And if you think that a “personal preference” of a player should immediately be disregarded because it doesn’t agree with what the devs find “important”, then that is just not correct.

Games are made for people to buy, play and enjoy. The amount of time a person will play the game (or spend money on things like cosmetics) is inherently tied to how much enjoyment they get out of playing it. And if that enjoyment isn’t met, that person will stop playing the game and in-turn causing the game to fall in popularity, player numbers etc. which, in-turn, will reflect in the amount of profit received from said game.

In other words: The gaming industry is not a one way relation. It is not just “You either agree with what developers are doing or you get out”. It is a both developer and player relation which have to be in a balance if studios making the games want to make profit.

And looking at what’s happening in Darktide, there’s a slowly growing number of people who grow increasingly more frustrated with the game’s neglected balance and the constantly growing power creep which makes weapons and talents obsolete while making others the only viable options on higher difficulties. You won’t look me in the eye and claim you can beat the Auric difficulty as easily with the Heavy Sword or the Braced Autogun as you can with weapons like the Dueling Sword or the Plasma gun.

And my post is about the case of making the players finally putting their foot down and putting FS in a chokehold situation where they can either continue to ignore the increasingly growing issues within the game which displeases more and more people overtime and suffer losses in profit for it, or sit down and focus on solving these issues first before going back to making more DLC content.

It’s the same as when Darktide first released, and it was a broken mess. People complained and FS caved in. They stopped the addition of new content to focus on fixing the game first. You wouldn’t catch anyone back then saying things like “If you don’t like the game in its current state, you can get out because the devs clearly want to make more content and not what you want (fixing the game)”.

Of course, it’s on a much smaller scale and back then it was less a coordinated action and more just a reaction from the playerbase, but I guess that is why I would like it to be dealt with now and not later. FS is already ignoring people’s pleas on the Forums, so what else could make them listen? The same thing that made them fix massive issues in Darktide in the first place: negative reviews.

@Tarquelne

and I have better things to do with my time. Telling strangers they’re wrong, for example.

Arguing with people online isn’t really something I view as “a great usage of my time”, but you do you, I guess.

[MunKy]

Fair enough.

[Hammer_hold]

@JanZamoysky

the developer is trying to achieve some progress gameplay balance

Progress gameplay balance? I would really like you to elaborate on this? Do you mean the Bound by Duty update? FYI, I really support updates like this (even though it arguably did not fix the balance or even made it worse, but that’s probably why you used the word “trying” when you were talking about them fixing the balance) and I hope there will be more in the future.

@JanZamoysky

and maintain the game’s identity…

I don’t really see how keeping weapons DS overpowered or having enemy spam exist in game is “maintaining the game’s identity“. Could you elaborate on that? I don’t really know what you’re getting at here.

[Hammer_hold]

@MunKy

How do you know it wasnt?

Because for the Chinese playerbase everything about the balance (regarding the OP weapons), is fine as it is right now. So any changes is ruining the balance for them, and they want to stop it from happening. It is not “We want FS to fix the balance”. It’s more ”We want FS to not apply any changes, that have nerfs, to the weapons we always use, so the current balance doesn’t break (doesn’t force us to relearn the steps that we learned already)”.

You can’t tell me that me trying to keep people from breaking a fragile vase is also me already trying to fix a broken vase.

[MunKy]

@Hammer_hold

Because for the Chinese playerbase everything about the balance (regarding the OP weapons), is fine as it is right now. So any changes is ruining the balance for them, and they want to stop it from happening.

Thats not really an explanation of why its not an organised effort, more of an explanation of why they dont want the DS nerf, which we both already knew.

@Hammer_hold

It is not “We want FS to fix the balance” and more ”We want FS to not apply any changes that are nerfs to the current balance so it doesn’t break (doesn’t force us to relearn the steps that we learned already)”.

Right, and Im not equating what you want with what they want, Im saying its dangerous to do this because next time, much like with the DS non-nerf, it may not be something you agree with. i.e. I didnt think the Leopards would eat MY face.

I dont think this games a broken vase, more like a nice vase with a few chips and cracks but otherwise watertight and good for putting flowers in

Other than a few outliers like the DS (which btw doesnt help any scrub Iv ever seen actually excel and cheese this game in any Auric Maels Iv been in), I think the games doing pretty good and doesnt require review bombing at all. I think that it might just do more harm than good. It might just turn new people away from the game at all. I dont want that. Do you?

Im not a vindictive person and I dont think FS are actually cheating people out of money by buying this game despite any issues with it which btw occur in every game Iv ever played. The only games that deserve review bombing imo are the fraud games that are not actually games but made to suck money from people. Darktide isnt that game. Its been made with care, attention and love, like most really good games.

[Hammer_hold]

@MunKy

Thats not really an explanation of why its not an organised effort, more of an explanation of why they dont want the DS nerf, which we both already knew.

Well I actually do think that the Chinese playerbase did an organised review bombing after the DS and PG nerfs were leaked. So I think there was some communication error here.

@MunKy

I dont think this games a broken vase, more like a nice vase with a few chips and cracks but otherwise watertight and good for putting flowers in

I wasn’t equating DT to a vase. That was more an example I used as a point to disprove what I thought you thought, that just explained you don’t believe.

@MunKy

Right, and Im not equating what you want with what they want

[MunKy]

I must be misunderstanding you then. Its just you said this (and I just want to edit in for anyone, this isnt meant to be a gotcha moment, its just an honest search for clarity):

@Hammer_hold

But the thing is, this wasn’t an organized action that intended to force FatShark to fix the balance.

To which I replied:

@MunKy

How do you know it wasnt?

To which you rebutted:

@Hammer_hold

Because for the Chinese playerbase everything about the balance (regarding the OP weapons), is fine as it is right now. So any changes is ruining the balance for them, and they want to stop it from happening.

Then you just said this:

@Hammer_hold

Well I actually do think that the Chinese playerbase did an organised review bombing

I hope you can see my confusion here

@Hammer_hold

You can’t tell me that me trying to keep people from breaking a fragile vase is also me already trying to fix a broken vase.

Im also not understanding you here either

[Hammer_hold]

@lMarcusl

Nobody needed to reviewbomb Fatshark to force them to overhaul talent trees. Nobody had to reviewbomb them to introduce the Power Falchion or buff Chain weapons and the many, many other changes that have been made just this year alone.

Correct, and I was hoping we would countinue to see more and more of these balance changes rolling out in the next update, onyl to be met with nothing of that sorts. And what worries me further is that FS is planning to go harder on making more paid classes, as we know from the new interview between Jefficus and the Design Director of FS.

@lMarcusl

You may not be happy with the pace things are happening at, but you can’t legitimately accuse Fatshark of doing nothing unless coerced

My issue isn’t that “FS is doing nothing”. It’s “FS is doing that thing (making more paid content), while they should be doing this other thing (fixing the balance)”

@lMarcusl

If the devs’ sole motivation was to sell you as much stuff as possible, they wouldn’t bother expanding Mortis Trials, adding free weapons, rebalancing underperforming weapons, reworking Ogryn and Veteran and Zealot, nerfing Arbitrator, creating new Havoc modifiers such as stimms and the myriad other free things they do on the regular.

That happened before the interview and the Hive Scum addition. I’m worried we’ll see much less of these kinds of additions in the future becasue FS will focus more on making paid content, rather than giving us free new content.

@lMarcusl

Did Fatshark release Darktide in a terrible state and then just pushed through selling more stuff? No. They paused their entire content release schedule and got to work fixing the state the game was in.

They fixed the game because it was drowning in negative reviews back then. They had no choice if they wanted to not continue to loose major profit.

@lMarcusl

If it was all just about the higher ups pointing to their wallets and demanding they be filled, 80 % of the releases the game got would never have happened.

Now, that’s just blowing things out of proportion. Higher-ups may be stupid, but they are not that stupid. They care about profit, so if they will lose it, they will take action, which is why Darktide got all those patches after release.

@lMarcusl

The people that feel reviewbombing the most acutely are those working passionately to make the best game they can. It’s their work you’re dumping on and their livelihoods you threaten.

I agree, but I see it as a necessary evil. It’s almost like people who go on strikes and block the highways/roads. Yes, people get caught in the crossfire, but it’s to make a point to the people in charge. Of course with Darktide the people in charge would also be feeling the impact of those types of action (unlike the blocking of the roads, but probably you get my point).

@lMarcusl

People complain about power creep all the time, yet when attempts are made to scale things back, dimwits go “reviewbomb this crap” and slap the devs over the wrist. In an environment where whoever screams the loudest and is the most abusive gets their way, nothing good will be created. Because the playerbase is not a uniform whole with one vision and goal, and when one group gets what it wants, even if it’s the majority, all it takes is a bunch of ragey miliants to start screaming and stop the change or force it to be reverted. Which leaves the devs paralysed to do anything. They’ll add new classes and new weapons and new maps cause that always gets the crowd cheering, but god forbid they try to nerf anything in a truly significant way, cause then 15 year old Johnny Adkins from Milwaukee with zero emotional control will get all his friends to reviewbomb the game cause they had the audacity to nerf his favourite weapon, even if it was actually the right choice for the health of the game.

@lMarcusl

The playerbase is diverse and its wants are often contradictory. No cohesive whole can ever be achieved by allowing this diverse playerbase to dictate the developers’ steps. The only one with a cohesive vision of what the game should be are its creators, because they actually work as one unit. The fanbase doesn’t. And the less a militant fanbase interferes with them, the better things will be for the health of the game. One can only dream of what DT could have been by now if people used their head and didn’t stoop to terror tactics like this. I don’t care if you condone or condemn the result of the Chinese review bombing. You’re wiling to do and justify the same, because you have an opinion on what the game should be and you believe your opinion is correct. And you feel that justifies you pushing it on the devs through coercive means. Turns out, everybody has an opinion. Your likes and wants are no more valid than anybody else’s. Nothing gives you the right to push the devs around for your own ends, no matter how you justify it to yourself. Abuse of systems and of people is just that. Abuse. Full stop. That would make you the abuser.

@lMarcusl

And the example you’re using to show “hey, this method works” is the example that has the game locked up in the state it’s in. Now instead of the devs being free to pursue their vision and make the game they’d want to play, they have to tiptoe around cause “oh no, what if someone doesn’t like it and throws a childish tantrum and reviewbombs us again”. How is that possibly conducive to change for the better? The very action that would have made the game better (nerfing overperforming weapons so that the game can scale back its clowncar effect) was prevented by the very same abuse you seem to be in favour of.

All of that is correct. But it is more the case of me believing that it is too late to go back. FS has got themselves into such a state where the only way to make them listen is to review bomb them. They will not listen to people on the Forums. The biggest example of that, is people begging them for Solo Mode, almost since the game’s release. At first FatShark said “we’re working on it” but then there was nothing for years and there’s still nothing now. They didn’t said they weren’t doing it, they are just dead silent on it, like it never existed. And that’s how it’s been for years with other things, but then the Chinese playerbase review bombs them for trying to nerf the DS and they cave in. Sure they may have nerfed it a bit later but it was much less than what could have done, so it’s clear they were afraid to anger the Chinese playerbase again. So in the end, it just makes me draw this conclusion. Review bombing is wrong, yes, but from what we’ve seen, it’s also the only way to make FS listen.

[Hammer_hold]

Okay so I’ll break this down.

I said:

@Hammer_hold

But the thing is, this wasn’t an organized action that intended to force FatShark to fix the balance.

And I typed that out, thinking about the part of “action that intended to force FatShark to fix the balance”.

But when you read it, you probably focused on this part:

@Hammer_hold

this wasn’t an organized action

And that’s what led to the misunderstanding. I was focusing on one thing, you were focusing on the other, but we both thought that the other person is focusing on what we were focusing on ourselves.

[MunKy]

yeah thats what I saw

I still dont think review bombing is healthy for the game and could have unintended consequences for the games health and for attracting new people which, despite issues, it deserves more players imo.

[Hammer_hold]

@MunKy

Other than a few outliers like the DS (which btw doesnt help any scrub Iv ever seen actually excel and cheese this game in any Auric Maels Iv been in), I think the games doing pretty good and doesnt require review bombing at all. I think that it might just do more harm than good. It might just turn new people away from the game at all. I dont want that.

@MunKy

Im not a vindictive person and I dont think FS are actually cheating people out of money by buying this game despite any issues with it which btw occur in every game Iv ever played. The only games that deserve review bombing imo are the fraud games that are not actually games but made to suck money from people. Darktide isnt that game. Its been made with care, attention and love, like most really good games.

@MunKy

despite issues, it deserves more players imo.

I agree.

@MunKy

I still dont think review bombing is healthy for the game and could have unintended consequences for the games health and for attracting new people

Maybe, but that’s the part of the puzzle: It could work like it did for the Helldivers 2 playerbase or the Chinese DT playerbase or it could not work and just hurt everything and everyone. No one knows what really will happen until we actually try it. I’m leaning towards the former, you’re leaning towards the latter and that’s that.