Where it all went wrong

players love strong characters. it is completely normal and no one wants to die or fail over and over.

so the developers came up with talents to allow players a few choices on how they can help their players become stronger and with increased survivability.

the players found interesting and perhaps previously u considered ways to mesh talents and weapon traits to min/max their characters. some combinations of traits and talents were so potent (temp health for example) that they became the ‘goto’ choice.

as the players have increased in power the devs have had issues challenging the players. to keep higher levels exciting wave sizes were increased, wave frequency was increased, frequency of specials, specials coming at the same time, etc were all increased.

This all changed the combat mechanics from a very tactical combat to a hack and slash with dodge and block windows increased as the horde sizes increased.

with limited options (exactly how much ‘more’ can be thrown at our characters before it all just becomes a non stop stream? I’d say we are about there already.) on how exactly to challenge characters the devs came up with WOM. New gear, moving talents further back, new combat rules, etc.

i know its too late for this game but you know, it’s like you all are married to ‘stupid’. you keep going ever further the wrong way. go the other way.

cut horde sizes. cut frequency. reduce specials and their frequency. make the game easier.
kill off ALL talents, nerf weapon traits, get rid of power ratings, make classes purely cosmetic. all characters are basically the same under the hood with each having different weapon choices (that’s your variety).
reduce your dodge and block windows to make combat tactical vs hack n slash adventure type gaming.

life is much easier for you devs when you haven’t written yourself into a corner by giving your players thors hammer and then having to continually find new ways to challenge them.

players will always try to game the system. Forum posters will always be the more extreme of your player base. it’s good to listen to them but it’s wiser to know when to ignore them. it’s also wisdom to look back and see who in management pushed the company into a cycle of power creep and throw more at them as a game model - and fire them. worst decision ever.

you have a successful game in terms of sales for vt2. but I posit you would have had identical sales if some of the mechanics were different. vt2 has terrible metrics in terms of people buying and soon after not playing, etc. those metrics could and would have been different if the game were different. or do you honestly feel people like to routinely spend hard earned money on something only to find out its the hack and slash they didn’t want with huge swarms of enemies and having to meta your build to survive but then becoming so op nothing challenges you? what a choice…

you didn’t do all wrong this game. the maps are gorgeous. the variety of enemies is intriguing and drastically changes play, even within the same map. critics will say you need to change things up with each new game. that’s not what fans say. fans want more of what they know. they just want more of it and want it to look better. they don’t want or need the wheel to be re-invented.

finally, you need to decide if you are co-op tactical melee, a running hack n slash, or want to try a fortnite type battle royal amongst players. you can do 1 well but if you try all 3 they will all suck. there is a substantial difference in the fan base as well. you might have noticed the difference already, lol.

weaker players + fewer enemies is still every bit as challenging as stronger players with more enemies. but it’s easier on you devs to balance.

then crap out dlc every 4-6 months with 3-4 new maps, 1-2 new weapons, and maybe 1-2 skins or hats, etc.

finally kill the time wasters. no stupid keep. no loot box animations. no run to the portal to start mission. etc. those add up to tons of wasted time.

that’s where you all went wrong and there is how to fix it.
now that I’ve brought up the emperors new clothes watch a chorus of people come on whinging they don’t want to lose thors hammer and nit picking at my post.


This is unfair to the time it takes to develop good maps. I’d also argue balanced weapon variety is also time consuming. Ignoring that there is plenty of good content that could be added to the existing content without dangerous financial commitment to extend the average playtime for the average player.

Also I love the keep. It is what gels the world with narrative structure. Give shortcuts to players who want them but don’t take away the world building and narrative tone that is added by the keep. One of the key selling points of this game imho is the exceptional voice acting which is just as superfluous as the keep from a certain clinical standpoint.


Literally the opposite of this, this game needs to go full endless onslaught hack and slash and make us into sigmar incarnates.

Cause it is fun.


then buy diabolo. its exactly what you want. try that instead of trying to turn it from what it does very well (tactical coop combat) to what it does not so well (hack n slash). the engines already there for the tactical, it’s just been dumbed down for the hack n slash which is much different than having a hack n slash engine already in place, which this game doesn’t.

the problem with the keep is that it is too spread out. too far to run to that stupid portal. most people enjoy checking it out 1,2 or maybe 3x but then grow to resent the20 seconds wasted each time starting a run. it’s stupid to waste your player time when they want to play.
ditto loot boxes. cool watching open 1,2x. then the hatred starts to grow. wasting time that starts to really stack up. no one likes opening those. it’s a chore and massive time waste.

the voice acting is superb. both in vt2 and 1. everyone I know loves it.

the maps. OK then everyy 6-9 months or 9-12? it’s just important to have them coming out regularly.
and most important is that they STOP INTRODUCING NEW MECHANICS AND BALANCES IN DLC. maps, a few weapons, some skins. maybe rarely some new foes. done. not whole new mechanics…

they need to simplify. get out of talents. reduce numbers of foes. nerf the heck out of the players. then it’s not so hard to challenge the players and there is no need to go over the top.

the devs painted themselves into a corner and seem to think they can tinker to fix it. this dlc proves they see it too which gives me hope because before I wondered if anyone on top actually understood that they had dug themselves a huge hole (whereas the workers at fatshark clearly did ‘get it’ but management… not so clearly because its been stuck on double down on stupid for awhile now).

wom is a huge step in the right direction.

of course it will peeve players off who enjoyed being gods and cleeving entire hordes one handed whilst eating an apple with their eyes closed.

but go to far, even to actually fix the problem and people revolt. no one likes to lose what they already have so next time don’t double down on stupid. Next time don’t make the same mistake. don’t make players op. get rid of the things that made them op and because they never had it players won’t miss it.

but I suspect some upper middle managment guy who doesn’t actually work loves the talents and is the one who worked to make it happen and will somehow parlay his failure into a promotion. that’s how life often works :confused:

Baseless assertions about what this game is or isnt, no real support for your argument in your statements. This game works very well as hack and slash/endless onslaught simulator in the warhammer world from the 1st person viewpoint, because it is just that. Diablo is not even comparable. Also why dont you go and just play for honor or mordhau or souls? It is exactly what you want after all.


“now that I’ve brought up the emperors new clothes watch a chorus of people come on whinging they don’t want to lose thors hammer and nit picking at my post”.

xxxx arrives to prove the point. fine you disagree. you made it clear. unfortunately you didnt offer any support for your arguments or statements and then tried to turn it around. but thats fine. you like endless hack and slash adventure games. great.

but why keep coming back to repeat yourself. just take this as a thanks for your feedback. no need to keep coming back to this thread. ciao, sayonora, auf wiedersehen, don’t let the door hit you where the good lord split you.

It went wrong when they started listening to a handful of people with bad ideas shortly after launch while ignoring most of the community.

1 Like

that is very, very true. there is a very vocal group that has way more influence than they deserve and their ideas are routinely bad. you nailed that one.

He actually presented and proved his point unlike you who just made your assertions that dont make any sense and act like an ass when someone disagrees politely with you. And that cowardly and childish act trying to basically remove him from discussion because you cant deal with him - just pathetic. I’ll give you advice similar to xxxx one - dont start discussion when you cant handle it and dont expect a game to be something else because you want it, you may always play something else.

BTW Its Diablo, not Diabolo, and you missed that comparison a lot.

I missed where he proved anything. that you agree with him isn’t proof.

i do most of my replies from a phone. I’m fluent in italian, English, and German and write in all 3. you are pointing out an autocorrect spelling error because… ?

The comparison to diablo is its a game where one also gets to blast through massive hordes of enemies. the combat isn’t really realistic, the character is mostly very strong compared to the foes, etc. in order for this type of game to work the player has to be very strong compared to his foes. I didn’t say this game was identical to diablo, but it definitely shares elements.

vt does work as a hack and slash. sorta. not very well but it sorta works. hyper density, phantom swings, etc are partly elements of what doesn’t work in and are partly a side effect of creaming way too much on screen at once. because the vt engine isn’t really built for hack and slash. it can sorta do it but then it begins to fall apart as it overloads.

vt did very well as a coop game with realistic combat engine. the realism of combat is what kept people playing. you can’t do realistic combat when the players are op because to challenge the players you need more and more and then it becomes a hack and slash. which it does sorta OK but mostly not good nor great.

you prefer being way too powerful and running around hacking and slashing. which is OK. we all like what we like. and you got the game you want from 1.3 to 1.7. I prefer a more realistic combat and I’m getting the game I like now. I didn’t whine and complain from 1.3 to 1.7 like you are now. sorry if you don’t get my sympathy.

there are tons of games that do what you want this game to do that do it better than this game can. there aren’t any games that are coop with a better realistic combat experience.


Ahh yes, and what would those First person coop hack and slash game’s names would be?

because you are too lazy to use google you expect me to do it for you?

No, because it’s your claim, therefore your responsibility to provide examples.

left for dead, left for dead 2, mordhau on horde mode, borderlands 2, payday 2 (albeit it is more of a shooter), dead island, dying light has an awesome coop hack and slash mode, killing floor 1 and 2 does it about as good as anyone ever can, shadow warrior has guns but also a good focus on melee

thats a small list of games that i have already personally played. im sure there are many more games out there that i dont know about because i dont care enough to do your google for you.

why do you say the game engine isnt realist?

Aren’t most of those shooters first? Horde shooter and hack and slash maybe are similar, but in a way are different strokes. It’s like calling Serious Sam a coop hack and slash. Though I do agree on Shadow Warrior 2 being one, albeit very limited on character customization and too convoluted and abandoned project with no mod support to fix the bad stuff. Dead Island and it’s alternative Dying Light sure, they look like that, though I never tried due to zombie fatigue.

Let’s start with your character not having any weight, mid air you’re made if styrofoam, furthermore the same can be said about your swings and damage system being a as shallow as a puddle. Nevermind hotboxes, the idea that you need a talent or only specific 2 weapons to apply bleed effects, even Warframe is more realistic in it’s damage system and that game is power fantasy extreme.

Staggering system loses all it’s “realism” to slot system. Why the hell enemies you pushed or knocked down become ethereal so that others can pass through them and take their place? Why pushed enemies not affect those behind them?

There are too many in-depth things lacking to even try considering it not arcadey combat to begin with.

i actually think we agree more than disagree. the things you cite as not being realistic are things id also like fs to improve on in the system. id love the game to be even more realistic. i think this patch took a step towards that. you think it doesnt. but we both want it to end up being more realistic. is that a fair assessment?

In a sense I don’t think FS can handle it, nor do I have the right to request it for V2. I have no interest in taking away fun from people who enjoy old system.

I do believe that there is potential in whole thing and possibility to cater to both audiences with split style difficulty naming: Add Mythic difficulty to juxtapose Cataclysm, introduce variation of difficulties alternative to Legend, Champion that follow Cata set of rules with lower difficulty than it.

I see a potential, I just don’t see execution in hands of Fat Shark.

i agree too in that i just dont think fs can handle the execution. i dont think its the coders or the workers that cant do it, i think its a management problem. the lurching in different directions makes me think there are different visions and that they are competing vs complimentary.

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