Yes it’s an agro dump but it much much different from camo expert. Camo expert incentivized just staying put and pretending you were a turret. Infiltration can let you move and actually do something. I’ve saved so many runs with it due to being able to revive people while invisible. You can clutch all sorts of crazy stuff. I often use it to be able to deal with snipers that are pinning the team down because I can avoid a horde for 5 seconds and get into positions to kill the sniper. It’s got so much utility compared to camo expert. They aren’t even comparable.
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The point was, camo expert was also an aggro dump.
P.S. I’d like to point out that having the ability (ults,blitzes etc.) to to prevent the need for clutches in the first place is better, a lot better, by a country mile.
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Vet is entirely viable on Auric. He’s just less strong compared to other classes, largely due (in my view) to the underbuffed ranged weapons, this will change patch 14 and he will instantly feel stronger. I have a bro who has been preforming very well with plasma and catachan sword. Yet i’ve heard nothing but negative takes on plasma. * not unfairly.
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This is disingenuous as heck, and is only relevant if you’re running premades. . . If you’re on Auric STG and Maelstrom doing pubs bringing defensive builds and kit is perfectly valid. Can we not do the “if you shoot harder/better enough you wouldn’t need [wounds/camo/infiltrate/otherdefensivetoolortalent] you scrub” meme?
No matter how good you are the director will always find a way to get you, even if you’ve got the bestest numbers, and the dankest dodging and blocking skillz. Also, stuff like this gives you the flexibility to salvage otherwise unwinnable runs when you get Leroy and/or the lvl 25 gang as teammates dragging down a monstrous specialist maelstrom run.
I do agree that it’s on the weaker side atm(the CD is brutal). IMO though, I actually think it’s more powerful than VoC. Simply because it’s way more versatile. Depending on your build it’s basically a combination of executioner’s +VoC lite PLUS stealth and a movement boost to help you manage your positioning. Believe it or not you don’t need all the DMG in the executioner tree, VoC only gives you a stat boost if you go pure officer, and infiltrate allows you to survive situations where you’d get fixed and killed anyway even if you pop VoC. It even allows you to consistently take advantage of your distance-gated talents even in the wildest of auric maelstrom runs too. The only way I could see VoC being better is if they ever roll up for the emperor into it or at least move the talent node into VoC’s upgrade pool.
You don’t use it to maneuver into melee, you use it to get out of melee. Every second you’re in melee is a second you’re not using to kill disablers/grenadiers/snipers. Even if you’re going pure commando vet, you don’t use melee offensively, that’s ogryn and zealot sh*t. You use it to manage your positioning, and correct mistakes (yours or teammates). With good situational awareness you’ll be clearing out special waves before they even disrupt the team regardless of how many disablers or chaff the director spawns on you to try and stop you.
Jesus, my infiltrate helbore/headhunter sniper build consistently out-performs whatever I can whip up off of executioners.
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Surgical + Handcannon Revolver with crit Executioner stance build seem pretty good at deleting stuff imo, probably much better than Bolter and Plasma too.
Don’t forget the grenade and toughness regen talent though. Frag grenade is really great when you run into an elite patrol.
Who in holy hel said anything about “defensive builds” ? Or “Shooting harder”
I’m not sure which strawperson you’re arguing with, but it ain’t me.
I’m referring to people who bring super long CD ults they never use for one, or grenades they never use or just waste on small trash hordes.
If you have stuff that you can use to prevent “clutch” situations from occurring in the first place, defensive stuff included, then you don’t need to clutch as often or save that one ability that will totally save the day and clutch (maybe).
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The PG works great on Auric damnation, it lets you take up a dedicate anti special/elite role.
It does take getting use to, but once you learn how to use the PG effectively, you can destroy anything the heretics throw at you with 1 to 2 shots.
I do recommend using a PG that has a thermal resistance of about 78%+
This will allow you to get the most out of the gun before needing to vent.
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I may have been off on some of the wording, but the argument still stands. What you’re saying here and the portion I quoted previously implies that there’s little to no value to having tools that act as safety nets or ways of mitigating risk in builds because successful runs may happen even without said tools. This is what I’m pushing back against. It’s “I don’t need locks because I’ve never had a break in happen to me” logic. This is what I was referring to with the “defensive builds” or “Shooting harder” bit.
Also, in the case of infiltrate, it’s worth noting that the CD reduction talent combined with the extra charge upgrade mitigates if not outright trivializes the massive cooldown in Auric maelstrom and STG. Depending on how a run goes you might even have more up time on it relative to executioner’s and VoC. This is because you can essentially always just run the extra charge as a reserve if you’re playing aggressively or a maelstrom run. So your argument doesn’t even apply to it.
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No it doesn’t still stand because that’s not at all what I said and you can’t seem to see the forest for the trees.
There’s a difference between a safety net, and being hauled to the O.R. where the doctor can “clutch” you.
The real clutcher is the dude who deployed the net that prevented you from having to make the trip to the O.R…
If you have tools at your disposal that you don’t use until the last possible moment after crap hit the fan repeatedly, then yeah, you helped create the “clutch” situation in the first place.
I f you want to go on a side rant by all means, don’t use me as an excuse, you don’t need one.
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I’d argue that infiltrate can be both a safety net and a hauling to the O.R. to use your analogy.
I use it frequently to maneuver around a horde or misc elites to intercept specials/disables. Or to get safely into position to kill a sniper that otherwise might kill my team. Or to run up on a pack of ogryns and toss a bunch of crack grenades out. Or to flank around a pack of gunners when the team is pinned to pull the gunners into melee. There’s tons of safety net opportunity to use infiltrate proactively to prevent a bad situation. Or to go stealth to deal with a mission objective to keep thing progressing.
And of course there are many times where you can use it to clutch and deal with a crisis and pull of crazy revives/rescues.
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If you’re just a good player in general you can use any build unless it’s designed intentionally to be bad.
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It is good idea to choose your targets wisely. If it not special (exept Mutant, maybe Burster too), shooting back or poses an immediate danger, it should be killed in melee. Oftentimes you can spare ammo if you see that you team handles situation. Yesterday I played with 3 vet team with Vraks(me), Plasma and Reveolver, and these guys seemed did not pick up ammo at all.
I can’t argue with that, nor have I.
But FWIW, I’ve seen the both shout and stealth being used pre-emptively, but that’s at best ~1/4 times so far. I’ve seen a handful of player use both these ults really well over the last couple of days, but again pretty rare. I think one of the vet shouties didn’t have the revive penalties.
I’ve also seen at least 1 dude use his revive shout 2-3 times failing horribly as I don’t think they were aware of the tiny radius. Mostly it’s just them never ulting just in case they might need it, and often by then it’s too late.
It seems to me the super long cooldown and “clutch tap” has the effect of making people save it for when it’s usually too late, and that makes for frustrating matches. It was the same in VT2 w/ Merc Kruber revive shout, saw plenty of those “never ulters” there and I’m seeing way too much of it now.
All of this is likely moot with the reworks anticipated in the next update.
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because it doesnt do anything for you to win matches. the core of this game is to prioritize and delete targets while you move trough the map as efficiently as possible. infiltrate really doesnt do that much for you. if you really want to do the melee forcussed vet then the shout does way more for you with better nodes on the way.
the only situation for this to be effective and useful, is if you make so many mistakes that you need it as a crutch to either save ur life, or the run. in both cases its legitimate, if you dont want to learn and play the game properly. im not sure if this is what you want, and most ppl intutively graps this (eventually) anyways and dont bother with the ability.
ofc a good player can contribute a lot to a run with stealth and use it in many ways like you described, but all most of the things you mentioned can be done without it, while being way more potent offensively.
in this games, the better offense was always better. the basic tools of blocking pushing sliding are all you really need. in vt1 players still learned this, when a little trash rat took half your hp. unfortunately this game allows for players to ignore the basics way more. often i see players that didnt block a single hit the entire map.
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Pretty interesting. I’m not aversive to an agro-dump playstyle if the team doesn’t do what it is supposed to, and Helbore definitely has enough damage output without Executioner’s Stance.
With the long pull-out time and generally hard melee break-off of Helbore build running Infiltrate might actually give you an edge there.
I still remain entirely unconvinced that it has an edge in any way over Chastize/Stealth Zealot with going ninja/flanking playstyle. I rather play something that can take some punishment when doing that kind of playstyle instead of something made out of paper with a single safety net.
PS: I’m talking in perspective to STG. On non-STG Auric you can get away with playing basically anything with the proper amount of skill in melee mechanics.
This. Proactive abilities that reduce or remove chance someone will be knocked > reactive abilities like revivng shout
And considering how many there are newcomers on auric-maelstrom, it’s not even worth to use such reactive abilities on them, cause if it’s a clutch moment (every moment is a clutch for them) they will be knocked immediately again and ragequit anyway.
I mean, this is not a fair comparison. Commando vet has most of the weakest talents in the vet’s tree. Infiltrate only really starts to shine when used in hybrid builds. Also, going for an aggressive melee flanker playstyle with commando is a trap. It’s good way to shop around for assisted suicide services during a run IMO. The tree layout fights, tooth and nail, to keep you from coming up with creative, and worthwhile hybrid builds.
I mean. . . unless you go full VoC tank officer or camo infiltrate + confirmed kill + iron will almost anything else you can come up with for vet will be as survivable as a paper bag in a rainstorm.
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That was kinda my point. I can buy it being good for a boost to Priority Target Killing, but things, like @Mezmorki proposed running around with Stripped Down and flanking around the enemy, reads like a suicide guide, and I say it as someone who basically goes hard-engage Zealot on a VoC build.
Tbf to @Mezmorki , the way I interpreted his build is as a fire support class. You stay in the flanks relative to the team, or you stay glued to the resident crackhead if he’s competent and you keep him alive. You use stuff like stripped down and infiltrate to make sure you don’t get isolated or fixed while maintaining consistent positioning.
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Yes basically. It’s not some crazy high DPS build or anything, but it trades that for the flexibility to pivot and help out in any situation. It doesn’t rely on anyone else for your own survivability so you can split off and deal with stuff or help a teammate out that gets separated. When playing in PUBs this inevitably happens, usually a few times a run, and being able to pinch hit works wonders for getting the team through a jam.
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