It seems mostly accepted that weaves as is are a…trash fire according to most poeple. So the question remains. If you had it your way and had the task of introducing a new game mode for endgame…NOT JUST NEW MAPS A NEW MODE how would you have gone about it? Personally I like the IDEA of weaves but the whole…leaderboards competitive speed runs thing was not the right way to go. I think if they had been randomized from the ground up they would have made…a wider range of people alot happier. They new crafting I can live with, and kind of wish it could be ported to the base game but anyway…off topic. The randomness of runs is a HUGE draw. Ditch the boards…fix the bots and let us bring them in and make it fun random rifts like it should have been. What about you? Change rifts? Different thoughts on a game mode entirely?
I was just thinking about what I wish weaves were easier today. Here it goes:
In my vision, when you quick play with weaves on, you go into a randomized weave (combination of love fragment plus mutator) at your loving of difficulty. At the end of each weave, as a group you’d have the option of ending the weave and and cashing out for some level of reward or press on further, which you’ll dump the whole group immediately into a subsequent random weave. Every 2-3 weaves competed would slowly increment the difficulty a little. You could choose to take your reward and leave, or press your luck. If your party wipes, you’d only get like half the reward accumulated so far.
The intent would be to encourage people to keep going in longer runs. Every 2-3 weaves would provide a chest reward and/or something juicer, and each individual weave would yield increasing piles of crafting materials or currency.
The above sounds cool and fun to me.
Deeds. The expansion was called Winds of Magic and at every point when I talk about why weaves are bad I make sure to point out that I did actually like the winds. End game is already just running the adventure maps and over time trying to progress to a higher difficulty. Deeds blurred those lines by offering augments that usually increased the difficulty, but as a subset of that difficulty. Maps already played with a certain amount of RNG thanks to the AI directer now have more variance because there’s any number of extra stipulations attached and winds could have been added to that. It already carried higher rewards appropriate to its difficulty level. All it needed was a better way to access it and a means for public matchmaking for it. (not saying those issues are easy to solve but they probably were worth solving)
Entertaining that we’re already here I think there’s two ways this should play out. 1) Matchmaking fixes the issue with weaves in that it was just a player access barrier to them and there was a substantial audience for the fixed weave content all along. 2) After instituting matchmaking for weaves they’re still a dead zone and the small fixed spawn maps as a means of recurring seasonal content do not appeal to a large enough playerbase.
Assuming condition 2 that’s when I think it should go to RNG level and wind allocation. The bonus to this is that they just set up an AI for it and they can stop having to manually build each level and spawn type. They can just add a couple “weave maps” with assets from whatever new adventure map they introduce. At that point it is what it is and they can leave it on the back burner if nobody plays it.
I think the Deep Dives system in Deep Rock Galactic that was introduced in Update 25 really nailed the concept of seeded missions and I’d love to see Weaves try to imitate what makes it great.
Every week, 2 seeded Deep Dives (which consist of 3 individual back-to-back missions each) are released, divided into a Normal and an Elite difficulty respectively.
As far as I know, they are still randomly generated, due to the procedural level generation present in DRG (I.E, the devs themselves don’t waste time and resources having to make unique Deep Dives every week, the game does it for them), but everyone that chooses to queue up for one are put on the same map in the same order every time for the rest of the week.
When Weaves were first announced, they were also marketed as “taking bits and pieces” from existing maps and mashing them together, which is also hinted at at least some level of pseudo-procedurally generated maps, however, that ended up not being the case.
Clearing a mission awards you stuff. In VT2’s case, it’d be Essence.
In addition, the missions also have various modifiers. In VT2’s case, this’d be the 8 Winds of Magic, along with the modifiers present in Heroic Deeds.
The team which gets the best time is put higher on the Leaderboards. This isn’t different from how Leaderboards function in VT2, but people haven’t complained about it on DRG for some reason.
So basically, what I’m suggesting is this:
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Merge Weaves and Heroic Deeds together.
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Take specific parts of every level in the game and throw them into a giant pool. Every week, the game randomly puts together the pieces to form a handful of unique Weaves for that week. I think 6 Weaves, 3 Normal difficulty and 3 Elite difficulty, would be good enough to start with.
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Take the modifiers from Heroic Deeds, throw them into a pool, and apply 1-2 of them to each Weave, according to whether it is a Normal or Heroic difficulty one.
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In addition to the modifiers from Heroic Deeds, the game also randomly chooses 1 of the 8 Winds of Magic to apply to the Weaves. This can either be to every individual Weave, or to every Weave for that week overall, according to whether we want as many differences between the Weaves for that week as possible, or a specific theme for the Weaves for that week.
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Make a bunch of pre-set enemy groups and formations (including specials), throw them into a pool, and have the AI Director scatter them around the map, so they are in the same spots for every player (I’m pretty sure the AI Director already does this, but it probably does it dynamically and reactively, whereas this would be proactively).
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Like in DRG, the current health of all players, along with the items they have equipped, carry over from Weave to Weave.
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Finally, reward players with Essence for completing a Weave, with higher Essence being rewarded for getting further (I.E, reward with a small amount at Weave 1, moderate amount at Weave 2, and large amount at Weave 3).
This, I feel, would keep the seeded nature of Weaves intact in order to have a fair and reliable Leaderboards system, whilst still keeping it fresh every week in order to promote replayability.
The fact that it’s only a few Weaves every week also cuts down queue timers immensely, compared to the 1 - 120 Weaves system we currently have (I know we’re getting quickplay Weaves in Season 2 but that’s besides the point).
Of course, this won’t be implemented from one day to the next, and will take some time to get working, but I can see this being the future for Weaves going forward, seeing as how successful it’s been in DRG.
To quote myself from this thread:
Move away from 120 step-after-step model. Instead integrate weaves into the quickplay queue. Make getting sorted into weaves a checkbox that grants better rewards if checked (whether or not you actually end up getting a weave level or not) and put them on the same difficulty scales as the ones we currently have - so have a selection of all winds for Recruit, Veteran, Champion, Legend and Cataclysm. You could multiply the quick play level pool easily and get a lot more variety, for those who want it. Everyone else leaves the box unchecked.
Make weaves have better payout. If weaves worked as more of a part of the normal level pool, as suggested above, they could also turn out XP and loot boxes as normal levels do. You can also keep the essence system and combine it with the lootbox system. Make it so you can either grind items the old way, by opening boxes and re-rolling stats… or take the item you want to the Athanor and spend essence points earned from weave levels to give it exactly the stats and properties you want.
Gameplay-wise, I actually really enjoyed weaves - the bit of them which I actually got to play, at least. It´s mainly their integration (or lack thereof) into the base game that really holds them back.
First of all, I think that a new game mode, especially the one with parallel progression/items, has never been necessary - since there are plenty of game modes and modifiers already present.
Secondly, the board and competition is… let’s be polite and call it superfluous.
What I would have found OK would have been a difficulty based random sequence of current weave levels with randomised enemies, kind of like the last stand progression in VT1, using regular characters and loadouts. The problem of having multiple game modes would remain, but at least it wouldn’t be so far from the regular game.
P.S. I find it insulting to call weaves the “endgame”.
And LO! Sigmar raged against the sky, and Grimnir smote his anger upon the mountain. Yay, even Shallaya got quite cross and frowned, for dividing an already small player base was folly.
Deep in the Shadows the trickster god Ranald, who had given the finger to every single player since time began laughed and pointed, for the rage of the brethren was music to his soul."
Excerpt from the confession of Bruno the Bonkers, executed for Heresy by Victor Saltzpyre circa 2519 IC.
Weaves should have been a part of the current system, and should never have been separate from the main game. Making leaderboards was such a mis-step and showed a complete lack of understanding of what the playerbase wanted.
Weaves should have been part of the complete rework of Deeds, and had all of it offer some part of the new shilling system. Attempting a weave with loads of modifiers at CATA should give you more shillings.
Put the essence system into the main game for forging weapons and get rid of the RNG-reroll-til-you-want-to-vomit system we have now.
Don’t have the maps all disjointed, just be able to play them in reverse.
Everything else I think has already been said by @LordRhinark
[edit] I also think instead of trying to spend ages fixing this pile of steaming Nurgling Turds, they could have pumped out new maps in the time it’s taken to develop and launch WoM and the time spent fixing it. Just because it’s actually playable now doesn’t mean it’s brilliant. Weapon balance is still shot, some talents still obsolete, crafting still annoying, inventory still full every ten minutes, deeds still fairly pointless, weekly events are… non-events, so consider how much could’ve been better if they hadn’t smashed their game to bits with Ghal Maraz.
I feel like the big question mark is randomization. When the people that don’t like weaves they come in and suggest something, I think a lot of us have come to think of RNG elements as a key feature of Vermintide. Leaderboards could be done in a different way to couple with it . There’s actually a bunch of options that open up if weaves are open to change. But there is a portion of the audience that likes the fixed nature of weaves. And with things like Deeds and the AI director for adventure maps at the point you start randomizing weaves they become less of a separate entity from the “base game”.
So the question is, if fixed weaves prove not to be a draw is randomization something that Fatshark would be willing to consider. And I don’t think we will be getting an good answer to that until after we see how this next beta (and probably after the release of season 2).
Also someone else brought up their distaste for calling weaves endgame. Yeah I hate it to. The insinuation that I haven’t already been playing the endgame grinding red illusions and completing achievements is ridiculous. Its an insulting part of weaves them being “end game” like I didn’t want an expansion of the part of the game that it should be readily apparent I enjoy because I and a bunch of other players have been doing it for hundreds if not thousands of hours. But nope we couldn’t want more added to that clearly what we wanted was weaves. It seriously doesn’t get any less frustrating any time I think about it.
I feel like working on an RNG version of weaves solely for quickplay would be a good idea tbh.
Tbh I thought weaves would be a similar feature to how Twitch mode works. It will be a setting that the host turns on before starting quickplay or choosing a custom map that’s already a part of the game.
That would have been much better than the completely separate mode of tiny chunks of already existing regular maps where all the enemies are fixed spawns.
Edit: my bad for necroing a post. This was listed at the bottom of my screen as a new unread topic. What heresy.
Most of us expected randomized modifiers added on to the existing maps, perhaps in a separate challenge mode though. We figured that the weekly event was basically a test run for mechanics they would later use in weaves.
Personally I just wanted more variety in what I already play, not a completely new (and separate) way to play. Welp.
I’m fine with this one coming back. Let’s be honest how many threads were there about weaves this beta? I didn’t play a single one, because nothing has been done with them that would change my feelings on them. The bigger question isn’t what would make them better there’s a ton of great ideas for that, its what would Fatshark be willing to do to change them?
Hm, at least two. Unles you mean in the Beta Forum. But the Beta forum is only for stuff of the beta. As such the general Weave threads have been going into the normal forum. Although it doesn’t make a difference as people love to ignore them.
As for the thread in general: I’m very glad they are not just another stupid modifier like Deeds or the Weekly Event. We have four or five! modes which all work with the stupid rng based A.I. director. As such they all feel super similar. Weaves on the other hand due to the hand placement feel more different between two Weaves. The Weave maps themselves are find and good. It is just the presentation and accessibility which are lackluster. Ideas how to change this have been made as well and again been ignored by the community.
I think they’re a good idea and allow the devs some room to explore new effects and mission types. I would have preferred some kind of rift/farmed boss instance missions.
Most of the people I’ve talked to would have preferred some overhaul of the deed system with choosable modifiers which also change the level of reward (even though the reward system is also pretty scuffed).
The issue here is that neither of these systems are all that good either. Specifically with deeds the accessibility is bad. The reason we keep seeing people asking for weaves to be more like deeds, is because deeds aren’t fufilling their purpose either. Its that “game health” thing Fatshark is supposedly working on, because weaves got added on top of the broken systems of the bad base crafting, and two implementations of mods (weekly events and deeds) that neither quite meet the mark for what players want.
You’re correct in that part of what makes weaves unique is the individual nature of them. The handpicked spawns to fight around x location. But its hard for me to come in and advocate for them to keep working on something like that, when it appears to be at the expense of the game mode that I care more about. Especially when winds are something that many of the Deeds/Adventure map crowd would love to have applied to the base game maps.
I think people would stop asking weaves to be Deeds if the deeds system was actually good. But since there’s no deeds system overhaul in the work when players get asked what they want weaves to be what are they supposed to answer with? How are weaves supposed to be seen as anything other than antagonistic to the other game modes by nature of occupying the apparently very scarce dev time?
Well matchmaking was probably the biggest cited issue with weaves. I don’t know if the current implimented system fixes that but the attempt was made. Weaves did sort of get the shaft with the new Emporium system since they don’t currently use weapon illusions (That was also a mistake, not putting the weave illusions as a reward) So this new rewards system for shillings very clearly geared at playing adventure maps. If they had made the quests things that could be completed in any mode (you can of course do some of them in weaves) that might have been better for the “game health” of all the modes.
But since the base crafting system is the one that uses illusions and they went with Athanor for weaves it now segments it from this new feature they’re adding into the game. regardless of the game mode weaves itself, the infrastructure they added in was redundant at best and lacking in cohesion with the rest of Vemintide at worst.
We could start at how the Athanor should have usurped the old crafting menu. Its cleaner, faster, better, not grindy and alround feels just very right.
Weaves themselves should have been like deeds, with quickplay. The turned maps and the modifiers are fine. Choose a difficulty, press WQP, get listed with a group, earn standard chests, always general or better, which contain what they contain atm. Equipment will be turned into essences. Incase you didnt own the Skin, itll be unlocked. No more direct essence for completing a Weave. Ideally Weave skins would drop aswell, which can also be bought in the emporium for a highish price.
The people who play to grind red skins still can do that. The others who have no interest in such, but just want to play, will not notice a difference. Crafting would be fixed as will the micromanagement of the inventory and dust conversion.
Iam not sure how much work those changes would need. Incase you wonder what’s with all the non WoM people, dont. Chests are still there. Weapons wont be turned into essences for them. Not Ideal, but since Weaves and the Athanor are part of WoM and it being basically just a QoL change, it’s okayish to do.
That the spawns need to be randomized again is given.
If they really want to they could let the “old” system, the one we know right now, stay. No essence reward, just for the challenge and frames, but I dont think they are required.
This is fine too, I want to be clear I don’t care which one Fatshark chooses. Fix the old one and overhaul it or convert to Athanor and let us pick illusions. Both are totally fine totally viable solutions. But please pick one, the separation of the loadouts is a huge negative right now.
I’m assuming no. Sunk Cost fallacy compelled them to double down on WoM even after the disastrous beta (and they’ve spent the last 6 months trying to recover from that mistake). The same reasoning will probably make keep tweaking them in the hope that they will someday be relevant to someone, somewhere.
Until they realize that weaves are a temporary side show compared to the real game, and tie the Athonor in with Adventure mode some how, weaves will remain a wasteland no matter what they do to the maps.