Weapon Stat Scaling - Quell Speed

Warhammer 40,000: Darktide General Discussion
1

So I’m trying to understand how exactly Quell Speed works. I’ve been wondering about this for a long while now but always just moved on and accepted it for what it is before.

Anyway.

This is how Quell Speed and its attributes SHOULD work, and how every other stat works (at least that I’ve noticed):
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And yet, this is how it actually works:
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What exactly is going on here? The stat’s description says “Bonus to Quelling …”, so is it really based on some base quelling value, and what we see as is just the end result? And why isn’t it linear, but instead looks more logarithmic?

  • 65 → 70 adds 7.35 Q-spd
  • 70 → 75 adds 8.33 Q-spd
  • 75 → 80 adds 9.53 Q-spd
  • Below 60 your Q-spd quickly plummets to negative, when it really shouldn’t

Note I’m not criticizing, complaining, or blaming a bug. I seriously just want to understand. Any mathematicians here? :joy: I’m making a list of weapons & their stat scaling for fun, so I can theorize on builds etc. but I can’t do that with stats that can’t be calculated so that’s why I’m asking now. :smile:

2

In the case of quell speed, it makes sense that it gets a larger increase towards the end of progression, since you are expected to play on increasing difficulties.

In early game (low difficulties), you have short fights with longer downtime in between. For any 5 seconds that you could use your staff, you may have 10 seconds of downtime right after the fight, where you can quell your peril. At low difficulty, rapid peril buildup and slow quelling are no issue at all, and are basically required for you to notice the peril mechanic at all.

Later on (high difficulties), you are almost constantly fighting with sometimes multiple minutes without any downtime at all.
At that point, you have so little downtime, that the speed at which you gain and quell peril, has to be massively different, for it to feel good.

There is no smooth, linear change for the factors that determine the value of quell speed, so it would make sense for the quellspeed of a staff to not change in a linear way either.

3

I think you misunderstood everything I said. :sweat_smile: This isn’t about what I think, it’s about how it works.

All stats scale linearly between their min/max value and your stat. The first table shows how everything else works whether dmg or movespeed or stagger etc.

If your dmg for example shows 100 min, 300 max, then that means a dmg of stat 0 would have 100 dmg, and stat of 100% would have 300 dmg. So the formula is simple: MinDmg + ((Max-Min)*stat%). Stat 80% means 260 dmg, stat 65% means 230 dmg, etc.

But Quell Speed doesn’t work the same as everyhing else.

My question is why, and how does it work? I just want to understand the formula.

4

I do not think that i misunderstood.

I just explained to you why it makes sense for the quell speed bonus to not have a linear relationship with the modifier value.

It is also about what you think, because you said that it SHOULD increase in a linear way.
That is what you think.
But not how it works.

As for the exact formula, i do not know.

If you had a lot of data points, you could simply input them into your program of choice and fit a curve onto them.

5

I don’t understand. Twice now, I’ve said it: This is how the game works, how every other variable works. Quell Speed is the outlier, and I want to understand how that works. It’s not about how I think things should be or not I have no opinion and don’t care. I just want to understand Quell Speed’s stat scaling mechanic. That’s all.

Are we both neurodivergent and just talking past each other? Because to me it feels like you’re trying to pick an argument for its own sake for no reason at all? Did I say something to offend you in the past?

I really, genuinely don’t understand what’s going on. If you keep this up I’ll just block you and that will be that.

I’ve tried. But the nonlinear scaling confuses me. Like I said I’m no mathematician.

2 Likes
6

You originally said, that quell speed SHOULD have a linear increase, based on its modifier.
You also said that it SHOULD not get negative values for stats below 60.
I simply went with exactly what you said.
“It should be linear.” and “It should not get negative.” is what you think.
“It is not linear.” and “It does get negative.” is how it is.
That is what i was referring to. No offense intended.

Regarding me making an argument for quell speed not following the same rules as dmg stats:

Both peril related stats (quell speed and warp resistance) are outliers and do not really follow the same principle as other modifiers.
Both peril related stats have increasing returns, while other stats have diminishing returns.

The value that improved peril stats provide to the player, depends on how much time you spend in and out of combat. The value of damage stats does not.
The time spent in combat increases massively, with increasing difficulty, so it is not unreasonable to give different scaling to damage stats vs peril related stats.

Also this here from Darktide release:

Many stats used to be non linear, so Quell Speed not being linear, could be an oversight.
However, considering the things i explained above, they probably just stuck with non linear scaling for Quell Speed, because it makes sense.

I only explained something to you, in response to what you said.
After reading my further explanation above, you might agree, that it was relevant information when it comes to understanding WHY Quell Speed scales differently than damage stats.

I do not tend to join discussions, just to pick a fight.
Not sure why you would think that i was attacking you or anything like that.
I was not and am not attacking you.
No need to be mad.

My understanding of this is, that the base quell speed (which you get, when quelling with your blitz or a force sword out) is 100%.
Since the stat is explicitly labeled as a “bonus to quelling” that would mean:
a +30% quell bonus results in 130% quell speed.
a - 30% quell bonus results in 70% quell speed.

If you consider the actual quell speed (100%+bonus) and not just the bonus, the resulting “quell speed with applied modifier” is of course still not linear, but in a far less pronounced way than it is, when just looking at the bonus value by itself.

You would need data points from all over the stat bar.
Then you can plot them in excel or something like that and have a look at how the stats change, based on the modifier number.

If you provide something like 20 data points, i can do a fit for you and give an estimation of the formula used.

2 Likes
7

Bro, you are overthinking. From all the posts of yours i’ve seen, you need to try PoE. Or altleast look at PoE2 when it will be released.

There is no instances when crazy minmaxing in DT filters out wipe from successful run.

More over, i think how stats are calculated in Tides are overcomplicated or atleast not intuitive. Like how those grey extremum numbers in the brackets you can see will never be achievable, cause there is no 100% modifier. Like wtf, why you even showing those calculations for 100% to us.

Considering those games aren’t trying to push more builds/items heavy gameplay (wich i would like to, personaly. We can see how 13 patch made game more deep. They should embrace Tides future is to become more complex verision of Destiny)

Speaking about stats scaling and WHY it is so - GRIND and MINMAXING. I’m not sure they are all linear, cause linear stats would not work for the path of item progression they’ve chosen.

If every stat on weapon is linear there is no rng layers.

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However if it’s exponential something like that it works for item griding and minmaxing in theory - you need to achieve some bare minimum so it will work fine enough, and not sabotaging you gameplay. A workhorse point.

And here is a dirty trick - quite easy to be unlucky, cause stat difference barely gives anything when below 50% or stright up trash.

And if you rly want to achieve max potential you need to roll gacha again, cause scaling is ramping up at the end, so you want that juicy high stat number.

Add here how there are several stats on weapon and you can’t affect them, like fusing 2 weapons in one, etc.

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8

I haven’t looked too closely into this but I can try giving a rudimentary explanation:

peril = warp charge
quell = vent
all examples taken from Trauma Staff

The Quell Speed stat modifies two specific stats of the weapon’s base warp charge template: vent_duration_modifier (for active quelling) and auto_vent_duration_modifier (for passive quelling).

The respective stats of the weapon’s base warp charge template are lerped accordingly:

  • If 80% Quell Speed stat, the vent_duration_modifier is 0.7
  • If 70% Quell Speed stat, the vent_duration_modifier is 0.8
  • If 60% Quell Speed stat, the vent_duration_modifier is 0.9

This modifier then is used when active venting is started and getting updated, alongside other relevant stats from the weapon’s base warp charge template and Psyker’s base warp charge template.

Possible buffs also come into play here, like vent_warp_charge_speed (Psyker’s Solidity talent) or vent_warp_charge_multiplier (Celerity Stimm); each to different effect/impact.

1 Like
9

it’s a common way of speech in english to say something “should” behave in some way but not intend it as an opinion, but rather as an objective statement. He’s not giving an opinion as to how something should work mechanically based on his feelings, but rather how the rest of the game is designed. The rest of the game is designed to scale linearly, and quelling isn’t. It’s not difficult to wrap your head around why he wants to know it works like that.

2 Likes
10

I am aware of how the word can be used.
I just usually expect people to be more precise and clear in their way of communicating, because that is what i am used to irl.

In this case, he did:

I am not sure what you are trying to communicate with that sentence, because it seems that at least one word is missing (highlighted section).

11

No she did not. With linear scaling you’d need a stat of less than 25 to get into negative quelling (-33.33+(133.33*0.25) = 0.0025). The numbers are right there, plain to see. The whole reason I mentioned where that <0 point comes in reality was, again, to highlight the way the real Quelling Speed is completely different from the stats. Iirc it was around QSpd 55 or something where the game puts you in negative.

But I’m not gonna do this again. Just wanted to point that out.

12

My bad.
I misunderstood and thought that your issue was with the number getting negative in general.

1 Like
13

I think I see the problem in why you misunderstand things. You’re parsing structure too discretely. You need to include the “why” before the bolded part. ‘He wants to know why it works like that’, but the ‘why’ is set earlier to fit grammatically with ‘around’ → “around why x happens”.

And the reason why he’s saying “it shouldn’t” work like that, is because the rest of the game doesn’t work like that. It’s the same style of speech.

14

Or maybe the issue is, that your sentence is indeed missing a word.

I will assume that the meaning of your expression is supposed to be:

She wants to know why it works the way it does. It is not difficult to wrap your head around why she wants to know that.

In that case, you correctly included one why.
“It’s not difficult to wrap your head around why she wants to know x.”

What does she want to know?
She wants to know why it works like that.

So the correct sentence would be:
“It’s not difficult to wrap your head around why she wants to know why it works like that.”

One why is regarding the reasoning for wanting to know.
One why is regarding the reasoning for why it works as it does.

Without the second why, the meaning of the sentence would be different.
She would not want to know why it works like that, but that it works like that.

Please correct me, if i am wrong, but this seems to be the correct way to express it.

15

:roll_eyes:
it’s not

that has a different meaning. That’s asking why she’s questioning, rather than why it works.

If you want both, you would need a comma to separate it into different clauses: “…around why she wants to know, and why it works like that.”

16

The second part is about her wanting to know why it works as it does.
The first part is about wrapping your head around why she wants to know that.

Which is why there are two “whys“.
Which i explained.

In your sentence, you were asking why she wants to know something, followed by an incomplete explanation of what she wants to know.

Apparently, you meant to say

“It is not difficult to wrap your head around her wanting to know why it works like that.“

That would be a sentence with a different meaning.
In this case, it would be about wrapping your head around both things.

17

yes. Obviously. That’s how you would have to write it out to ask both things separately, like you mentioned in the quote.

“why do you want to know?”
“why do you want to know it?”
“why do you want to know it works?”
“why do you want to know it works like that?”
“why she wants to know it works like that.”

18

These two sentences are fine.

These three sentences make no sense.
They are missing a word.

People want to know HOW it works, or WHY it works as it does, or IF it works in a certain way.
In our context, those sentences are missing a “why“.
That has been my point the whole time.

Holy hell… i give up.
This fruitless discussion has taken up enough space in this thread already.

19

those were examples of not needing a second ‘why’, and you can see it in the last example and how it transforms into how I said it. You can see exactly what I mean there without it.

20

Well, they are bad examples, because three of the sentences DO need a second why (or a different additional word) in order to make sense.
See my post above.