Not every gun is going to be appropriate to use with high uptime, if just because of the target pool they’re effective against. This is a necessary and good part of varied ranged weapons with varied roles.
Like it’s just never gonna be efficient to shoot a horde with a low cleave, low fire rate weapon. Even with infinite ammo it would be stupid to do.
So no, it isn’t faintly reasonable to expect to be able to take any gun and spend the majority of the time shooting. At least not without completely slaughtering gun variety and them being designed for different use cases.
Edit: I should clarify I don’t disagree with making improvements to Vet’s ranged kit, I just don’t think we should chase a pipe dream of letting Vet shoot any and every gun all match.
Look I’d also like Vet changes but I don’t think you’re identifying any of these problems correctly. You’re implying you can’t get good toughness gen with ranged combat as Vet but that assertion is beyond absurd.
Literally all three early toughness talents work (well) at range.
Buddy when was the last time you even played the game? That talent got changed to this a pretty long time ago:
It literally multiplies the gain from all those other toughness talents by up to 1.75x (you should be running LRA with MF anyway).
Damn that’s a of lot of toughness gain without ever needing to get in melee range!
Lol about the Psyker comments. Gun Psyker is good but whenever people want to pretend Vet is worse than they are they always conveniently skip over gun Psyker having literally 0 ammo sustain, nor even a total ammo increase anywhere in their tree and how much that completely cripples their ranged capabilities compared to Vet.
Like I don’t even disagree with making ranged Vet improvements, but I can’t agree with any of these takes.
Yes. That’s why even basic lasgun has some cleave.
Yes, is is reasonable.
Nobobdy ever said that. There are weapons that you can’t shoot all the time due fair ammo restrictions: Revolver, Bolt pistols, plasma, double-barrel\shotguns
But there is much much weapons that were literally designed to hose the hordes or be used 90% of the time(Torren and versatile keywords, bruh): Recon lasguns, braced autos, infantry lasguns, helbores, autopistols, infantry autoguns… So expecting them for be the most wirlded weapon it perferctly reasonable.
Catch a break is a useless. Regen is too low, requirements are too high(Meanwhile we have “Man and cybermastiff”). Pick only for pathing.
Hey, MF node! Guess what it does? Does sucks. Absolutely and deep, almost never working, because you are holding your mele and move all the time. Also it’s very wasteful to use this with your or any other weapon. So basically it’s a wasted talent point, unless you’re me who tried to make “release vet” build for gimmick.
UPD: Aside from “Focus target” and “Weapon spec” nodes, that are giving you toughness, the only actual touchness tanekts that vet has it “Out for blood”, “Confirmen kill” aaaand… The third one nobody ever takes because it’s located behind currectly useless longshot.
I won’t count shout(Since it’s main and olnly toighness restoration source).
And that can be accomplished by making Survivalist an exclusive passive to Vet, accompanied by Vet having exclusive access to Plasma and Helbore.
That’s what it means for Vet to be the “ranged specialist”, nothing about being able to ignore melee combat in a game that revolves around hybrid combat.
I can’t tell there’s anything wrong with vet dodges and i have like 500 hours with the DS5 on vet, which is all about dodges and more dodges. His ranged dodges are fine as well!
However as someone else pointed out, sliding seems bit less effective perhaps than it could
Is it really hybrid if it’s at the very minimum 75% melee unless psyker staff or exclusively built hellbore vet
At this point the Game is closer than VT2 than ever, full melee builds, ranged is reserved for specials
Even VT2 has more ranged oriented builds/classes than DT funnily enough
We should stop saying the Game is hybrid combat, at least for now, this Game was supposed to be more hybrid but nowadays with the director throwing 5000 stuff at you that’s not really feasible
Just because you run out of ammo (eventually) doesn’t mean guns aren’t important…
That said I do sympathise with players who want more ranged weapon viability, and I think there are some game design (likely talent tree reworks) tweaks that would help promote more gun-focussed playstyles that wouldn’t invalidate melee – which if we’re being honest is one of the biggest differentiators and draws of FS ‘Tide games whether you like it or not.
IMHO there’s plenty of things to shoot already in this game, and if you think the poxwalker trickle means you can’t effectively play a ranged class that’s a skill and awareness issue. If you are mag-dumping hordes and complaining there isn’t enough ammo on the whole entire map, that’s a priority issue.
And if you don’t want to melee at all… then you’re going to have to accept that it’s simply going to be a more challenging experience for you. Likewise vice versa. Hybrid n’ all that!
this Game was supposed to be more hybrid but nowadays with the director throwing 5000 stuff at you that’s not really feasible
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Likely due in part as a response to player power creep. While I don’t know for sure what numerical wizardry compells the “Director” to kick up the intensity mid-mission, all the non-HISTG games I’ve seen the spawns get out of control usually began with the team steamrolling through the first section.
[quote=“Frish, post:111, topic:110902”]
That said I do sympathise with players who want more ranged weapon viability, and I think there are some game design (likely talent tree reworks) tweaks that would help promote more gun-focussed playstyles that wouldn’t invalidate melee
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Agreed, also the addition of new enemy variants would serve to make ranged combat more interesting and challenging in a way that isn’t just a frustrating wall of 10+ Gunners. This would be important if melee combatants were to be reduced via *mission modifier.* (A logical way to alter mission pacing while still offering alternative missions for players who enjoy the high intensity of dense hordes full of melee combatants).
Really? 5% per second for just not having been hit in melee or blocked an attack in the last 5 seconds? You wouldn’t want to rely on it on its own obviously but seems pretty decent as supplementary regen.
I mean there are two main problems with MF and I don’t think either involves the talent bonuses inherently sucking (tunnel vision both massively increases your regen and goes a long way to sustaining deadshot on its own). To me those problems are first and foremost Vet point scarcity (you feel like you use up basically all your points just getting to MF + a sub node and mandatory nodes like Tac Aware). Secondly the way difficulty is currently handled is generally adverse to ranged focus playstyles which is what MF boosts. Obviously I’m not arguing it’s a good pick in Havoc currently, but I don’t think the core design of the talents is bad.
Yeah I wouldn’t mind longshot and volley adept swapping places. I also don’t want to overstate how bad longshot is. I mean it does what it basically should right? It makes your breakpoints work at longer distances by helping you counter ranged drop off. That said I agree it’s too niche to be a forced node on left tree (hence my suggested swap). Could be neat if it also worked for the guns with reverse ranged dropoff, basically reducing all forms of ranged dropoff on top of its current long range damage bonus.
I guess I simply don’t want to mix up Vet issues. It seems to me there are enough sources of toughness regen there, it’s just that Vet’s core issue of running out of points quickly and the game’s spawn design being aggressively against a proper “backline” playstyle combine to make them mostly not practical at max difficulty or the opportunity cost of getting as many toughness talents as you want is too high (also compounded by a lot of Vet’s +toughness nodes being ludicrously far in the tree compared to other classes).
I hope that clarifies my position on Vet. I agree there are issues, I just don’t think I quite agree on where exactly those issues lie.
Yes. Because arby has same thing for just dog being nearby. And let’s not forget that dog can be counted as teammate and increase toughness regen even further.
Mf sucks, and, because of this, all sub-nodes are heavily suffering too. Simple as.
I agree about swapping, and no, i do bot overestate how bad it is. as long as 12 meters considered to be the edge of “close” distanse and damage will have to scale with distance - this talent will suck. Because even if evemy is beyond 12 meters - damage buff will be microscopic unless its really far.
I don’t think ammo is that Big of an issue if you build correctly, that’s not exactly the issue here
There’s enough things to shoot in the game
See the issue with this is that it’s not true, there’s not enough stuff for you to shoot to justify a ranged build
If You shoot poxwalkers, it’s a waste of ammo, and if you shoot carapace, it does nothing
Ideally this would shine against ranged enemies, but that doesn’t matter at all simply because people can just slide spam to get to them and kill them
Everyone has enough ammo to deal with specials, so a ranged oriented build could never work at the moment with how enemy ditribution and their current posing threat
Likewise vice versa
Literally playing 80% melee 20% ranged is x100 stronger than 80% ranged 20% melee unless it’s a psyker with flame/void
Playing melee 95% of the time will not make the game harder
You completely ignore the point that it doesn’t make sense to call it hybrid when ranged is used as a backup, not something you switch constantly along melee
