99% sure no it wasn’t but agreed with Tzcheese let’s get back on topic from here.
I do agree with @dragomusic and @Reginald that low-life Martyrdom is a coherent gameplay loop and I’d add that it has the biggest damage payoff in the entire game.
To kinda use this topic to steer back to the topic at hand at least Martyrdom is also a keystone providing a passive bonus as either a tank Keystone or a low-life insane damage/AS steroid with minimal management (Until death CD), not plagued by the same issues as Marksmen’s Focus or WS.
I still don’t have a problem with WS. However I think a good solution would be:
Keep the base node the same. Really don’t change it (i would not be opposed to a different ranged buff, but keep the activations the same).
However, have some of the modifer nodes change activation and time, etc. Aka actually modify stuff. That would mean people like me who are happy with it currently would still be fine, while people who want a stronger version get one for 1-3 more talent point investment.
At a minimum, they should increase the base duration of the melee buff to 15 seconds without any modifiers IMO. I also disagree on the ranged buff, I think the ranged buff has a lot less problem than the melee buff apart from activating on the switch instead of shooting (I think mainly because how Alway Prepared works).
Here are the absolute minimum changes for WS I want to see:
- Buff base duration to 15 seconds on melee buff and introduce subnode enabling permanent upkeep without switching while you have enemies around. Something like refresh duration on an enemy hit.
- Make Always Prepared a separate buff that triggers on weapon switch while the base boost of AS and Crit only triggers when you shoot.
- Replace the 2 useless and 2 extremely situational nodes. Namely Invigorated, On Your Toes, Conditioning, and Fleeting Fire. These could be nodes that give some additional power that isn’t just some tiny buffs for the fringest of uses or as you said modifiers that make upkeep easier (which all keystones have apart from WS for some reason).
My dream idea for WS is to make it into a thing that boosts switch playstyle instead of working as a requirement for gaining buffs. Here is one way to do it:
- Make base node melee bonuses just passives while the melee weapon is out. This would solve both the upkeep and the initiation problem of “shoot first” completely.
- Make Always Prepared a separate buff that triggers on the weapon switch while a base boost of AS and Crit only triggers when you shoot as previously.
- Introduce a new Node (Swapping out/Reworking Invigorated) boosting melee in the same way as Ranged works adding “power” to the first attack or some recoup. My ideas are: Regain some or all effective dodge when triggering “Melee Specialist”, or additional Power for the first strike similar to Limbsplitter.
- Swap Fleeting Fire to Swap-speed reduction node. Reducing swapping to ranged weapons by 10% per ranged specialist Tag.
Finally, and most importantly:
- Introduce node-boosting weapon groups in their own specific way(replacing On Your Toes). This would be the actual “Weapon Specialist” thing where you can get some thematic bonuses based on the weapon groups you are using.
These specific bonuses could be:
- Plasma: Activating ranged specialist Vent ~20% heat.
- Shotguns: Load special ammo into the weapon. (when the Ranged specialist activates)
- Axe/Knife/Swords: Rending or Automatic crit on first strike. (when Melee specialist activates)
- Powersword: Get energized automatically.
- Lasweapons (Recon, Lasgun, Helbore, Laspistol): First shot causes burn stacks (4-6). (when the Ranged specialist activates) Stacking nicely with Infernus the Lasweapon specialty.
- Revolvers: 0 sway/spread on first shot. (when the Ranged specialist activates)
- Autoguns: Extra ammo loaded in the weapon. (when the Ranged specialist activates) Ideally you get a full reload on a swap with 10 stacks if you also have Always Prepared.
Couldn’t think of anything for Headhunter and Shovels, but should have their bonuses too.
These changes would mean the WS would be something really special giving something unique to the “hybrid-switcharound” theme instead of working as a forced requirement of the playstyle to gain buffs, as it currently works.
4 Likes
I’m just sad that the “Weapon Specialist” Keystone doesn’t have any special bonuses for weapons, or benefits for Veteran-Exclusive weapons, or bonuses for weapon specials.
I mean, just things like
- Bonuses from blessings and weapon activations last 1 second longer
- Weapon Special activations and special shells get one extra use per activation and some small stat bonus
- Fully charging a ranged weapon grants +5% rending and sets enemies on fire (chargable vet weapons are all energy-based, after all)
- Something for non-energy weapons where they become less accurate, but more powerful if a lot of enemies are nearby, and the opposite if not
Basically, a keystone that could also have had “Shock Trooper” as a sub node.
I like Vet having a melee-based keystone, and I accept that for the Veteran, it has to have some interaction with ranged (just please not that clunky), I just feel like there’s a waste of opportunity with the name, and the class as a whole.
“Agile Engagement” works as a node because it is short enough that you have no hope of constantly keeping it up, yet useful for a snap-shot against a special.
But the keystones give us the illusion that we can keep them up, and then many would feel compelled to do so, which feels unnatural. “Always prepared” would be the only part that consistently feels good, because it gives you a useful, reliable bonus, with no timepressure attached.
Seriously, Fatshark really has an unholy fondness of timers.
The QoL changes like “only activate melee specialist if there’s actual enemies within 8m” have been suggested.
Though I do not agree with any suggestion that reads
No. No one really likes DD. It works, and it’s very powerful, but it’s buggy and clunky and makes you hate your teammates.
1 Like
But aren’t you just introduced more incentives to constantly swapping weapons, by better buffs?
Isn’t it will reinforce this “forced” mindset?
The only thing that doesn’t require swap, in order to be activated, is melee buff.
So what is supposed to make this transition happen?
I feel like I’m always doing it as I play; alternating shooting and meleeing.
I don’t really know what else you do in this game other than shoot and stab things.
They fixed the buggyness if it. I love it. People are just super OCD about it and can’t do proper target prioritization.
People want to shoot the highlighted thing. It’s why tagging works so well.
Is the highlighted enemy still randomly selected?
I cannot corroborate.
Since the last big patch, I had multiple cases each in multiple games where I can either not see any marked targets in range for upwards of 30 seconds - and believe me, I looked - or the target marked was some brute stuck in a wall or otherwise completely uninterested in moving.
Or the classic case of “three enemes, one of them is marked”, where after 3 seconds, the moment you shoot him, the mark moves to another one, only to immediately switch to the third one a second later, who is then killed by a teammate.
The only bug I know of that they fixed was random brutes not showing they were marked.
And not being super OCD about it leads to losing all stacks. Keeping it active can be the difference between one-hitting a charging mutant and, well, not.
At least marksmans focus has the decency of falling off one stack at a time. That and you can basically fully charge it by hip firing into a horde.
That’s because they aren’t. I’ve chosen to abstain from keystones and I’m doing fantastic in auric level missions. I usually come in first on damage and still play a strong supporting role.
TBH I’m a little concerned that all this focus on changing keystones is going to result in the no-keystone build style being nuked. I’d hate that, because I like vet but don’t want to play any of their 3 predefined roles.
4 Likes
A valid concern.
They already did shift some of the power when they introduced them.
It’s nice we can just ignore them.
2 Likes
I really, really think what WS needs is just a better stack system. 10 stacks of each, used on-attack for range and on-hit for melee. No time-related stuff (save that for the optional nodes). I always feel like I never really get value out of the ranged stance for more than hot-swapping to a revolver to blast one target then back to melee, likewise the melee buff rarely lasts long enough for me to build 10 stacks of the ranged buff.
Changing the talent to this stack-management system would make it more in-line with the likes of warp-siphon and momentum where you just sort of have stacks that you naturally build up and expend. have the stacks decay at 1 stack per 10 seconds so you have the potential if you move fast enough to go into the next engagement wit ha few stacks remaining to conserve your momentum (like momentum, so pun intended).
It think the talent itself is fine but the number one complain I see about it is the flow doesn’t feel right. people say they feel forced to switch weapons as opposed to naturally making the choice to swap and I agree, I find myself using it and sometimes having to immediately swap back to ranged to pop a special thus not having gained any ranged stacks because I didn’t kill any enemies with melee. If I just had stacks to consume this would rarely be a problem.
Truth be told I hindsight it all kind of feels silly. Fat shark invested a lot of effort to change up the talent points set up to allow for player agency. When the reality is, no one was asking for it. What people wanted, what they were begging for was for the crafting system to be addressed.
But here we are…
Yes
Than that is simply a skill issue. Learn to acknowledge that the highlighted target is just a buff stack and not neccassary to kill right away.
Not with the 15 stack one.
This is what I mean by “OCD.” You’re not supposed to have constant 100% uptime. This is not Warp Siphon. You have to ramp it up in each fight. And considering how powerful the buff is thats fine. You have to ramp up weapon buffs each fight as well. Accept that you’re not always going to have full stacks 100% of the time.
It’s a failure of design. They’ve created a system that makes people choose between doing what their monkey brain tells them (ie, clicking the shiny) or actively fighting their instincts and prioritising targets based on the situation.
DD is probably the most glaring example of this, but it’s fundamentally the same issue as the ‘make number go up’ impulse at the root of the complaints about MF and WS.
God forbid you have to use your brain for half a second.
The point is that decision making isn’t a one-step process. The early stages aren’t even conscious thought, they’re biological impulses.
Ignoring the impulse and acting in some way that goes against it often causes some sort of discomfort. That’s where this ‘unnatural’ feeling that people have complained about comes from.
3 Likes
I think the current largest problem with WS is that it breaks the flow state.
Dropping mobility due to the melee timer feels bad. Keeping the timer in mind and trying to keep it up is not optimal and due to this, it doesn’t come naturally, and “weapon holding” is also something that just takes you out of the game. These things absolutely break the flow state.
My target for the changes is to help the transitions instead of them being a requirement. Nudging you into a direction and boosting the playstyle instead of making it a strict “always in mind” requirement while also getting rid of some of the janky stuff.
If boosts work as a short-term/one-hit utility (with power worthy of taking a point) it would be good and wouldn’t push you to switch for the sake of switching around (maintaining long term buffs).
For current ranged specialists having the buff (the crit/AS boost) trigger on attack instead of switching would be enough. It’s more complicated with Melee Specialist since Mobility buffs can’t trigger on attack since it would just feel horrible.
I don’t want to be combative about this, but I think this means absolutely nothing.
Due to the playstyle I have I also come in first usually in damage on Vet, but I also play other classes and do the same there usually either doing better in damage, have more personal safety (allowing more risk-taking), provide more room for the team or more support (depending on build/class). Sometimes even multiple of these.
Currently, I feel like the best thing about Vet is being an Ammo regen bot with team support, which other classes just can’t provide and is actually useful… But if going for efficiency I’d rather have a Vet on my team providing these bonuses instead of me personally playing it.
Not that Vet is weak right now (depending on build), it’s just that if you are building for “strength” other classes can provide way more.
1 Like