Tide games were never about the loot

What I don’t understand with FS is why they try to stretch loot acquisition when both V1 and V2 never stopped you from getting your desired build. V1 had some problems with loot (and DLC weapons were the worst) but I hoped FS learned their lesson. Playing 200h+ Darktide I could not make even one build that had any direction. I know many people playing games just for loot but V1&2 were mostly about gameplay and difficulty. People play Cataclysm not because of loot and this is your core players, they have passion and are vocal about it, they can bring people into the game or make it negative score on steam.


Part of the reason for this focus on loot is that FS wanted this game to be somewhat like a live service game.
They probably realized that the seasonal/battle pass system requires too much work around content, and since there has to be some progression within a live service model, they did the most basic thing: bury the weapon progression under layers upon layers of RNG to simulate at least some kind of progression.


I fully agree with you that the current loot aquisition system is impractical for trying out new builds, and is getting in the way of my enjoyment.

However, as surprising as it is for me, a community survey was done on VT2 about 3 years ago that pointed at loot being a significant reason for playing even among people being comfortable in dif 4 and 5. A sizable portion of the playerbase want loot on the long run to engage, although I doubt most are satisfied with the current system.

Link below:

1 Like

There is an ocean of difference between loot, sensible loot progression, and the RNG hellhole that is Darktide and their planned crafting system. Especially in this kind of game, where being able to try out something different without spending 500 hours in the HOPE of getting the right lottery ticket is pretty damn important.


I know people (including me) want loot in the game but it is temporary. Core players all got their loot but stayed for gameplay, they bought all DLC and some cosmetics, they are spending money. Players chasing loot bought game on sale, played to get some reds then got bored and left.


The fun in these games, to me at least, was definitely the gameplay itself. The game took off when you reached max level and got close to max level loot, because that was the point where you couldn’t go “oh if only I had a stronger weapon” if you sucked. You have all the means of being effective at your disposal. Now use them. In Vermintide II, it was a bit tedious to get to that point, but everything you did kind of contributed to it.

Darktide seems to actively stand in your way of achieving that point. And that’s why people don’t return to it.


I agree.

They designed V2 for around 100 hours, I got around 100-200 hours of itemisation and proceeded to keep playing for several hundred more after itemisation was effectively done because the gameplay was that good.

Darktide, I’m playing despite the itemisation. Every time between mission I interact with it is another chip in my enthusiasm to keep playing because the RNG walls are too damn high and the chance of getting an upgrade is too damn low. It’s not progression, because I’m not working towards anything, it’s pure slot machine RNG hoping the numbers line up… ONCE AN HOUR.

V2 kept me playing despite the itemisation. DT is trying to drive me away with its itemisation.


hmmm… you are not stopped to get your desired build…
Off course, if you want the perfect build, something totally uneeded, here it is a problem.
But from what I’ve read, you could not either in VT2.

So, I think people focus too much on the blessings. There are few blessings that are a game changer.

  • Shred for a critic template, not hard to get a +4%
  • Deflector for a psyker, here it is hard to obtain
  • Brutal momentum, easy to obtain (i play with a combat axe and don’t have it btw, and guess what, the Axe kills mobs)

Seriously, I don’t think that the system described forbid to play like you want. I think that players are really creating a drama where there is none.

But, there are annoying points. For me it is 2 points that are major issues.

  • The unbalanced rewards at high difficulties between diamantine and plasteel
  • The fact the refining blocks 2 perks on curios.

For the curios, I ended sacrificing the 3rd, just to get what I wanted. As I wanted something really special, I end without any resist (except a -15% bomber and -15% sniper, but that was not what I wanted)
Precision: I play on heresy and sometimes on damnation when I want a challenge. And yes, I succeed to survive…


Oh, absolutely. I would identify as a core gamer, as I am a bit short of 2K hours of VT2 and lets just say that red items are not really an issue anymore. Even if I am missing one, I have about 3 warehouses full of chests/vaults to collect materials. Clearly, what keeps me hooked is trying variations around a very satisfying gameplay loop.

That being said, current VT2 playerbase is composed of more than cata core gamers or people who come and go. If I open the lobby browser, there are way more legend/champion/veteran games ongoing at any given time than cataclysm.

As you mentioned, it is not that loot is detrimental, just that DT current aquisition method feels miserable and punishing.

1 Like

I never was much into loot in VT2, you could make a strong build with bad weapons, due to career skill choices and slapping a sub-par weapon that would best utilize them was enough. Became a complete non-issue when Chaos Wastes came out , where you just picked your favorite base weapon or even a proven weak one, because you could still make it work. The random maps and multiple paths on each, even going the other way, plus exciting, wild perks and weapon enhancements made for a gameplay loop that didn’t require you to craft or chase weapons and focus on the core gameplay with changing, always interesting build possibilities.

People like trying new things or at least switching it up a bit in games, whereas in DT you either have a team you can trust or you’re forced to take weapons that let you deal with all enemy types. You could still take down a CW with a 1h sword or mace in a reasonable time. Approach a crusher or reaper with the wrong tools and you can’t do nothing about it, nowhere to compensate, you’re just effed because that sword of yours doesn’t have T4 rending.

It’s currently peak time where I am and sigh

They had all the potential in the world, they could have built on the successes of V2 but squandered it away. For what? Even trying something new shouldn’t be this bad. Whoever at Fatshark thinks RNG is game design needs to go back to school.


You have got the patch with the deployment of the crafting?
I don’t… but maybe you tested it…

I don’t get what you’re insinuating.

I have stated elsewhere that I’m willing to give the patch a try, I’m just lamenting that a game that had great potential has “somehow” reached the point of being played less than its 5 year old predecessor.

You can say all you want about patches, work being done, in the future and “potential”, but it really shouldn’t have come to this point in the first place.

Why didn’t Fatshark build off what they have learnt, why do they not test what they put out, why regress the player experience so far to fulfill a “design intent” they don’t seem to partake in?

We’re almost 3 months after “release”, next patch will finally complete a feature that was talked about before release and not completed. Do I hope it gets better? Sure, I do. But a lot of it hinges on how they implement these features and based on the last 4 months, I’m not confident.

1 Like

The scale of RNG is preventing me to create builds in reasonable time. I want to play melee Psyker but only once got weak Deflector. I constantly get weapons that are useless for me and saps all enjoyment. I can’t tinker with builds, can’t choose maps with set difficulty, no player agency, just RNG.
In V1 and V2 you can change anything and in V2 you could do anything with loot from the start if you grind many hours but not much RNG.

1 Like

Simple… the numbers won’t change cause… we have not yet the crafting system.
Actually, it is really frustrating to try to get a good weapon. The crafting system will change that. You will be able to get decent weapons.

This could push several to come (VT2 players) or return to the game.

1 Like

But you’re missing my point. This stuff should have been there at release. if the systems were there, if you had a modicum of control over what loot you had, the player base probably woudn’t have dropped to that below a 5 year old game in the first place.

It’s a long series of mismanagement that has squandered what potential it might have had when they released that trailer 4 years ago.

It’s significantly harder to get players to return to a game that they were turned off by than to get them to buy a game of a popular franchise in the first place.

You’re probably right, we’ll probably see a bump of returning players wanting to see how the crafting patch does, but again I shall reiterate: It should not have come to this in the first place.


I did not missed your point… and I agree.
It won’t change anything.

People can rage, complain etc. However, and I am serious, this won’t change what we have, and what we will get.
But now, think really about this sytem. This is better than what we have actually. And again, I am serious, this will permit to play with different gameplays and renew the pleasure on the game.

Personally this is actually what I wanted. Now, I wonder… when will we get it?

So, now, you can continue to see the glass as half empty, or start to see this one as half full

1 Like

Yeah, they said next patch, but no time frame at all. I wonder if that means no hotfixes in the meantime until the patch comes out.

To use a glass analogy, this is how I feel about Darktide at the moment:


I was going to post the below as a new topic, but this topic beat me to it, so I’ll post it here:

I want to put the proposed crafting system into numbers, and provide a basis of comparison to other games and why people are upset (still!) about Darktide’s design direction:

Say you want an item with “good” or even acceptable stats, with two blessings and two perks you want. Here’s the process:

  1. Check the shops for items you might want to buy. Either high level gray item or higher rarity items with at least one perk/blessing you might want WITH the level of base stats you want. This is entirely subject to RNG and could take a long time.
  2. Upgrade to orange. From gray, this requires 100 + 200 + 400 + 800 Plasteel (1500). Let’s assume 150 plasteel per mission (being very generous here), that’s 10 missions to get enough. 30 min per mission (with loading times, queuing, etc.). 5 hours. If buying an item from Melk, requires at least that amount of time grinding weeklies. You really need at least a full week (with completion bonus!!) to get enough for one good item.
  3. Pray to god that in step #2 above you don’t end up with two bad perks and/or two bad blessings. If you do, congrats you get to start over at step #1.
  4. Pay crafting cost to be able to reroll one perk. Effectively 300 plasteel (2 games, and another hour of playtime). Then spend upwards of 30 minutes clicking the re-roll button to get the perk you want.
  5. Check the shops for items with level 3 or 4 blessings you might want to use. Buy those items. Higher level blessings may only show up in Melks shop, so need to grind weeklies for those.
  6. Pay some amount of materials (undefined at the moment) to extract blessings and then pay some amount of cost to place the blessing on your chosen item.

Enjoy your new weapon, reject!

In theory, with the above system, and assuming that step #2 doesn’t screw you and make you start over, is going to take close to 10 hours of playtime to get one weapon where you want it to be. Even this is predicated on finding a weapon with good base stats in the first place, which given the RNG in shop could take a long time. This is made worse because you can only get these materials by playing the character with the item you want to upgrade. You can’t play an alt and apply those materials to your intended character.

Let’s share a personal exmaple:

I’ve been playing my Psyker for over 100 hours trying to get a Deflector Force sword with Slaughter AND good base stats (and acceptable perks). I’ve been buying and stockpiling everything that’s reasonable close or has the potential to meet this.

Even if Fatshark rolled out this crafting patch tomorrow, I still wouldn’t be able to build this weapon. I DO have a 374 rating force sword with Slaughter, which is only at level 2 of course. I could slot in a level 3 deflector (I’ve still never seen a level 4 deflector). But unfortunately both of the perks on the weapon aren’t really want what I want, so I’m going to be stuck with one of them. And this is my BEST option and assumes the crafting system is implemented. Like WTF?

I’ve been actively hounding the shops using the browser plugin to keep an eye out for good items that would give me a path to what I want. I have Melk money saved up in case something lands in that shop. 100+ hours, and even with their crafting system implemented I “STILL” wouldn’t have even ONE item that matches what I want.

Many people make excuses for this design direction (e.g. “if you got the item you wanted you’d stop playing!”), but they are completely missing the point for why so many people are upset about the grind and RNG and why people want more agency in the gearing. The point is that people want flexibility to easily tinker with their builds and actually PLAY AND TEST THINGS OUT to see how they perform. The reward isn’t the “item”, the reward is getting to “use the item” and seeing how it works as part of a complete build.

When people chalk up 1000+ hours on Vermintide 2, or Payday 2, or Deep Rock Galactic, the vast majority of this playtime is WELL PAST the point they are grinding out better loot. They have all the gear they ever want and keep on playing? Why? Because they enjoy challenging themselves on higher difficulties. They enjoy trying out different builds and weapon/gear combinations and want to see how it performs or handles. And for this to be a meaningful comparison you need the gear to be top-level in order to have a basis for comparison. If I’m trying to compare two different autuoguns, which one is inherently better and has more potential can only be assessed when both are in top shape, otherwise you’re comparing apples and oranges.

So in other co-op horde shooters, by the time I had 300 hours into the game I had enough resources to basically craft whatever items I want on demand. And moreover, the PACE of getting resources meant that as I played to experience a new/different build, I was getting resources I could predictably apply towards making the next build and set of items (and of course there was no resource silo’ing!!!). I’m getting resources on par with (or actually a bit faster) than I need to spend them. This gives me flexibility to experiment and try things out.

In contrast, Darktide requires a slogging, RNG-heavy grind on top of raw hours just to get enough to try one thing out, let alone be able to try out everything you might want to in a reasonable time frame. This is what’s driving frustration and burnout.

Yes, if I want to build out all the gear options for all the characters it’s going to take 1000s of hours. But it’s thousands of hours of frustration and at the mercy of RNG, instead of 1000s of hours joyfully playing and experiencing the fruits of my labor. That’s the difference.


This is a great explanation of why this intended crafting system is bad.

1 Like