Thunderhammer (And Bolter) Rant

[DrHammer]

Hello, just a quick little rant here.

Why doesn’t FS seem to understand there’s a market of sorts for weapons that are “Unwieldy, but powerful”? They seem to oft forget the “powerful” part and then when folks donnae use the weapon, decide to remove the unwieldy bit instead.

We’ve got weapons that are as strong (if not stronger) that are way easier to use, surely the weapons with long draws, horrible accuracy and slow windups should be stronger than the “Fast and accurate” ones, no? I want to feel like I’m barely controlling a weapon of mass destruction over here, I can’t be alone in that.

And while I’m airing my hammer-based grievances, why don’t any of the thunderhammer blessings have anything to do with the special activation? Why does it have 3 Impact blessings? Shouldn’t the “Heavy hitting, Crow Controlling” hammer already have enough impact? And even if it needed more, wouldn’t having one really good impact blessing be worth more than 3 lesser ones? Or adding impact to different blessings as a bonus, like Thrust, Shock and Awe or Momentum? Why have Thunderous when you can easily one-shot a crusher? Why have both “Slaughterer” and “Headtaker”? here’s more damage for hitting and killing stuff. Like, why pick anything else? We don’t even take heads, we smash 'em! There shouldn’t be anything left to take! Hell, if we’re going to reward folks for just using the weapon, why not have a blessing that buffs damage after landing a special attack instead? At least that’d be unique.

In fact, here’s a list of things that’d be unique and at least marginally more entertaining:

Thunderous (New): When you land a special attack, all enemies within X meters receive Y stacks of brittleness. It also changes the sound that plays when landing a special attack.

Headsmasher. Gain an X% chance to suppress nearby enemies when you land a weakspot kill. Stacks up to Y times. 100% chance if the attack is empowered. Hitting suppressed enemies deals Z% more damage.

Thunderstrike (New): When you land a special attack, all enemies within 8 meters of the first target have a Y percent chance of getting shocked (damage and stun).

Smolder: Killing an enemy with your special attack makes your following X attacks to ignite enemies. Adds cool VFX when active.

Righteous Strike. Killing an Elite or Specialist with a special attack restores X% more toughness, and gives Y% Toughness to allies in coherency.

Bloody Pulp. Killing an Elite or Specialist with a special attack applies X stacks of bleed to nearby enemies. You deal Y% more damage to bleeding enemies.

Energized. Gain an X% movement speed bonus while your special is active. Landing a special attack makes your next Y normal attacks Z% faster.

I could go on, there’s a lot of potential for “Cool Thunderhammer Blessings” that I feel is being left on the floor here.

[sant]

I’m going to state something risky here, but IMHO the Thunderhammer is fine right now. Let’s be serious, 1-shooting monstrosities was ridiculous. And you can still 1-shot a Crusher and anything else for that matter. Since there are other weapons that can do similar stuff (dagger on Zealot, dueling sword on any class, MK XIX shovel on ogryn, just to name a few), no one would use TH if it was as unwieldy as before the patch. Back then, it was supposed to offset the 1-shot anything potential. Now people would just use something else.

If you are into strong, unwieldy weapons, you should definitely give the crusher a try. It’s not my cup of tea (I prefer strong mobility weapons) but I’ve seen some pretty sick auric clutch plays with the crusher.

tldr; TH is fine IMHO

[alsozara]

To address both comments here yes TH is fine, no, its blessing pool is not fine, and frankly better breakpoints without thrust is still likely an integral step to achieving some better blessing variety.

Shock and Awe should be reworked to significantly improve CC/horde clear, as it stands it’s less effective at that job that HT/Slaughter that both have single target benefits as well.

There should only be one impact blessing and it should be powerful enough to make situations like fighting groups of ragers much more comfortable.

And yes some unique blessings that interact with the special attack would be great.

I do not think it should be made more clunky again, even with a power boost to compensate. The previous self stun timers just didn’t really gel with the current frenetic enemy spam the game uses as difficulty.

I would however love to see a heavy evicerator added that fills the niche of very slow and unsafe but crazy powerful. Just obliterates things but requires you to be in control and position well to not get surrounded and mopped up.

[DrHammer]

Aye, TH is not bad, I’m still going to use it, but the changes made to it are following a trend that I’m not 100% on board with.

But I’ll be sure to give Crusher a go, I’ve heard good things.

[OxygenCrimson]

I disagree. While the activated strike is fine, the horde clear/control is still poor. The weapon is way too slow to clear low hordes efficiently, nor does it deal enough stagger to control mixed hordes effectively.

The weapon is suddenly alright against single tagets but still struggles massively against hordes, courtesy of the recent buffs to Dreg Ragers along with their introduction to periodic horde spawn pool. A Duelling Sword, Combat Blade, Crusher or even Chainsword all either match or outmatch Thunder Hammer against single targets without sharing it’s weakness when dealing with hordes.

Not to say it’s the worst thing against hordes there is. Just that it’s strengths are not enough to make up for it’s glaring weaknesses of horde control and mobility - and those are huge.

[DrHammer]

I agree with most of this, although I think there’s ways to rebalance the THammer to be both Unweildy AND deal with spam. Having an innately higher impact could be one of them, which seems apt for a crowd control weapon.

But your description of a Heavy Evicerator is exactly the kinda thing I’d like.

[DrHammer]

I would agree. For a weapon that claims to excel at “Crowd Control” it doesn’t really live up to that.

[sant]

Have you played with Ironhelm (Thrust and Headtaker) after the update? It clears horde very well. And a lot better than it used to. Before the update it was just shoveling mobs around. Now I actually crack skulls. Oh and don’t forget to aim for the heads.

[OxygenCrimson]

Of course I did. It still doesn’t cleave through elites with it’s activated strike, so it’s a Kmart Crusher variant. Although admittedly, with the addition of Thrust blessing to the Indignatus Crusher I barely see a reason to use any Thunder Hammer - including Crucis.

The standard strikes are just as lacking as they are on Crucis, not to even mention the broken input buffer after 2nd light strike. Fine for normal horde, but I do demand more from a weapon which requires me to use charged attacks against horde and provides no mobility to make it any easier. Maybe I’m just spoiled by the Reckoner in Vermintide 2, though.

[BFCInsomnia]

@OxygenCrimson

It still doesn’t cleave through elites with it’s activated strike

Which weapon does? A bit weird to demand that of a weapon when nothing else can do it.
Even back in VT2, only specific attacks werent stopped by an armored enemy and most of them didn’t do damage to a 2nd armored enemy.

That aside, the powerup is to do more damage to a single enemy, not do more damage in general.

I’m also in the boat of, TH are fine now.

[OxygenCrimson]

I don’t think the following qualify as “nothing else”, perhaps unless we’re playing different versions of the game:

• Crusher
• Power Sword
• Illisi Blaze Force Sword
• Achlys Power Maul

Also, arguably:

• Latrine Shovels with Brutal Momentum
• Bully Clubs on their special

In VT2 Greathammers could knock a pack of elites around like sacks of potatoes while damaging multiple of them at once and there were plenty of weapons capable of cleaving through multiple non-CW elites (Flail, Flail again, Halberd, Greatsword, Glaive, Sword / Dual Sword on elf, the new Scythe just off the top of my head).

The powerup is useless since it doesn’t adress the core weaknesses of the weapon - that being lack of mixed horde control and mobility at once. The only way Thunder Hammers are fine is if they nerf Dreg Ragers.

[BFCInsomnia]

Nice list of examples. None of those weapons damage elites in a meaningful way natively. All of them have a powerup mechanic, specifically to do what they otherwise couldn’t.

Other weapons can do it too but only with specific blessings.

You seem to be asking for the ability to damage and stagger elites without blessings as the TH can already do that with the right blessing setup. I’m pointing out that that ask is a bit absurd considering that the TH is a fantastic single target weapon because of it’s powerup. Asking for that to also be good against more than 1 target is essentially asking for a cheatcode.

I could understand an AoE stagger blast on powered up light but nothing more.

@OxygenCrimson

In VT2 Greathammers could knock a pack of elites around like sacks of potatoes while damaging multiple of them at once and there were plenty of weapons capable of cleaving through multiple non-CW elites (Flail, Flail again, Halberd, Greatsword, Glaive, Sword / Dual Sword on elf, the new Scythe just off the top of my head).

Not all of these weapons do what you say they do and they don’t do it equally either.

Greathammers damage 2(?) elites per swing and only stagger 2 to 3. Flails are the same except they ignore shields.
Which attack of the halberd damage more than 1 elite? Greatswords only have attacks that damage the 1st elite and stagger a 2nd for 0 damage unless it’s a crit. Glaive is the same as a greatsword iirc. One handed sword I’m not familiar with but that shouldn’t even cleave a single elite. Dual wielded weapon don’t cleave elites but have 2 separate attacks with separate hitboxes so they “cheat” in a sense. Scythe I’m the least sure about but I’d be surprised if it damaged 2 elites in a meaningful way with one swing.

I’d have tested these claims but I currently can’t.

@OxygenCrimson

The powerup is useless since it doesn’t adress the core weaknesses of the weapon - that being lack of mixed horde control and mobility at once. The only way Thunder Hammers are fine is if they nerf Dreg Ragers.

And that is complete nonsense. Not because it’s wrong (kinda) but because it doesn’t make sense.

The powerup is specifically to allow for strong single target damage so why would it help in mixed hordes? If it were good at mixed hordes, why would’t you use it for everything? What downside is the weapon supposed to have you consider if it did have a “delete everything” button? If only dreg ragers are the problem, why not bring a ranged weapon to deal with them?

[alsozara]

@OxygenCrimson

The powerup is useless since it doesn’t adress the core weaknesses of the weapon - that being lack of mixed horde control and mobility at once

I strongly dislike the often floated idea of turning all weapons into all rounders though I do tend to agree more mixed horde control would be reasonable. Emphasis on control, not damage. T Hammer absolutely should be a slow horde clear, and I do think it still functions better as a frontline/space making weapon than knife or DS (some of its direct single target competitors), but I’d be happy for it to lean even more into that ability (thrust not being mandatory so you can more easily justify an impact blessing could help here).

@dragomusic what are your thoughts here? I haven’t personally had a chance to play much post update so not confident in my feelings on how current T Hammer handles mixed hordes and especially Rager groups.

Giving more mobility they actually did previously I’m fairly sure and I’m definitely not keen on giving it more. That’s going too far into removing identity for me.

[OxygenCrimson]

That’s a lot of words to move the goalpost from “nothing else can cleave through elites with it’s activated strike” to “nothing else allows you to stagger & damage many elites at once on it’s activated strike without blessings”. Funnily enough, Power Swords do exactly that. The Mk. VI in particular even has a push-stab attack capable of one-shotting Crushers as a sign-up bonus.

Admittedly though, I wouldn’t want all weapons to be as overpowered as the Power Sword so I guess you do have a point.

I’m not sure why you’re so attached to buffing the activated strike though since I didn’t say they should do that. What I said is that Thunder Hammers have unaddressed core weakness at managing hordes (especially mixed ones) due to the combo of low damage + low mobility, which is a fact. And also that I’d prefer the Indignatus Crusher over Ironhelm Thunder Hammer, I guess. Which is also a fact because I do, but that’s subjective.
The Crucis Thunder Hammer does poorly against tougher hordes, and it’s especially apparrent with the newly added Moebian 21st armoured groaners. It has trouble killing them (does a wonderful job of knocking them around until the Specials show up though), or Bruisers - throw a few Dreg Ragers or Bulwarks in and I’ll wish I had taken another weapon entirely.
So what I want is for them to give them a niche - either make them better at killing regular hordes or controlling mixed hordes.

Even if the Ironhelm started cleaving & staggering Ragers I don’t think it would do anything to make Crucis less awkward to use, by the way. Just saying that in case you really thought that was my point since well, it wasn’t. Unless they made the activated attack on both Ironhelm and Crucis cleave through elites, in which case I’d like that.

EDIT: When I said ‘powerup is useless’, I meant ‘powerup is uesless here’. That might have been a root cause for some confusion, so clearing it up now. Apologies for that.

[castkeyboard]

Do you know what penetration does

[sant]

Make your point.

edit: the benefit of a doubt

[BFCInsomnia]

@OxygenCrimson

That’s a lot of words to move the goalpos

It just seemed like you had a hammer and you wanted every problem (I.e. enemy) to be a nail.

That Idea I’m against in general and in comparison to other weapons. You seem to agree to that too hence your PS example.

@OxygenCrimson

I’m not sure why you’re so attached to buffing the activated strike though since I didn’t say they should do that

@OxygenCrimson

When I said ‘powerup is useless’, I meant ‘powerup is uesless here’. That might have been a root cause for some confusion, so clearing it up now. Apologies for that.

It seemed like you wanted the powerup strikes to be useful against mixed hordes.

I’d not a fan of that idea, as you could tell.

In that context, if a buff should be done to any powered up attack, the AoE stagger on light seemed like a good answer. That’s not originally my idea, pretty sure Reginald came up with that one.

I personally would like the basic attacks to be more useful against multiple elites. Not in damage but in stagger, similarly to how useful that aspect is in VT2.

The other problems the weapon has, I find to be downsides worth considering and workable. There are enough ranged options to solve those issues.

The point was that buffing it to be able to handle everything is a bad idea.

[DrHammer]

I can see ya’ll are hashing out your own grievances.

I just want to state myself that I’m fine with thammer being relatively weak to like, flak and maniac (The two go-to damage types for all rounders) and straight up obliterating Cara and Unyielding. But for Horde management I want to BULLY everyone.

By which I mean innately high cleave and impact. I want to be able to send multiple elites sprawling to the floor with my heavy strikes. I’m fine with it taking more time than a heavy sword or something, but I really would like to feel the power of each swing.

And of course, have some actually fun blessings to play around with.

[OxygenCrimson]

Well I’d like anything that would make it better against hordes. Admittedly I’d prefer for normal strikes to be buffed against hordes since now it feels too much like knocking them around but if it cleaved through many elites on activated strikes it could also alleviate my root issue.

I feel like we’re more or less in agreement regarding the fact that its combo of low mobility and low mixed horde clear does leave something to be desired, correct me if I’m wrong.

[yellowtoblerone]

I’ve been using TH in auric mael for long ass ducking time and I feel for OP. It’s not a well done weapon but it’s very good in terms of it’s finally better than before. But they also introduced other aspects of it that isn’t good, since it’s undocumented unsure if bug or designed. I dont think it affects the avg player in terms of movement tech and wielding so I won’t go into detail. But right now the hammer STILL being locked to 2 of the same blessing and mostly the same perks is pretty tucking dumb.

At least previous thunderous had some uses in scab only where you can consistently 1 shot crushers with certain build. Now it’s straight up useless. I’m not sure what FS was thinking changing it to something based on constant hits like vet tree brittleness.