I see this post almost entirely as a “The scoreboard should be improved” not “Remove the scoreboard”.
There are valid points about how relevent the scoreboard can be but even in such a state it’s not a negative and not a reason to have the scoreboard removed. IMO of course.
what i don’t get about the whole “we need the scoreboard to gauge our performance” is that you guys acknowledge that its a bad vector to judge these things by
and claim that’s better then nothing.
even tho this is a new game where you could have asked for any feature
why not go for a thing that’s a vastly better vector to judge these things by?
like for example tendency statistics?
example:
as ogryn on difficulty 4 (insert any metric for XY)
how much XY did i do, compared to how much XY did i do in the last 30 games
this would be a genuine vector to judge your performance by
So its turning into one of these arguments now … sigh. Just show me my own contribution to the run, i really could not give a … what someone else did. Maybe i just enjoy getting that perfect 0 dmg taken run and actually having a scoreboard to reflect that. Whatever the case, this toxic argument is laughable way to remove information.
Its really looking like the few times some elfs chased green circles in vermintide 2 is now suddenly a massive issue that needs to be adressed as harshly as possible.
You can even make it toggleable option if there is some issue with it that goes beyond " hey its toxic".
Nobody in favor of the scoreboard said its a bad vector. We said its not the only vector. The scoreboard shows what we ourselves cant track. It cant show that last second clutch. But it can show how much damage one did. Your idea if anything is actually in favor of a scoreboard. Would love to see how my stats are all averaged out in addition to end game scoreboard.
For what reason do you want to see it?
Using a scoreboard to determine how effective your build was is pointless because of arbitrary numbers that arent detailed enough. So if you would want to know the effectiveness of your build you would actually ask for detailed statistics about weapon strength, enemies and talents all seen before a run to build an effective character.
Which means that you want to see your contribution because you are self-conscious. You need the game to tell you that you did good and maybe even better than others. Seems to be the most plausible explanation, but i would still like to know the reason you think you want it, because you will obviously not agree with my statement.
I dont agree with your statement because despite multiple points of explanation as to why the scoreboard is a good idea. You jumped to the wild assumption that i only want it to feel better about myself.
Its a bad faith argument, and if you actually would read my comments and others you would see why we want the scoreboard.
And i, like others fail to see a good reason of why the scoreboard should be removed. Because frankly, there isnt one.
None of the points made are good reasons to have a scoreboard and you still failed to give a proper reason yourself since all you talked about in this thread is basically about what a scoreboard shows, so my assessment has to be right.
If its not right, then just tell me the reason why you want a scoreboard and are fine with one that doesnt even compare you with others, which is actually a legitimate reason for having one but also strengthens my point of people being self-conscious.
It really is. If someone is going to judge someone else during a run, it’s going to happen whether there’s a scoreboard or not. Overwatch 1 is solid proof of that.
Not gonna read any of this, i want scoreboards to know if i am being carried.
Shame is a great motivator in my life.
Just the damage taken stat is enough to warrant a scoreboard. It can be hard to keep up with how much damage you take if you don’t completely monitor how much you heal. Determining I’m consistently taking less damage gives me an indication of improvement, if I’m playing in the same manner.
The assists metric from V2 would help indicate how much you’re actually helping your team and not just stealing their kills.
You might have thought you solo’d a boss because you plugged away so much, low boss damage stat would indicate you’re using an inappropriate weapon or missed a lot.
List goes on, those three examples work without a team total to compare to. At least give me my run data.
Does damage taken really matter anymore considering that toughness is basically free health that regenerates through melee kills and coherency? We dont even have individual potions anymore but aoe crates and medbays in every other zone. Health is just a ressource anyway and it doesnt matter how much you lost, it only matters if you get downed.
Stealing kills doesnt exist in the game and you should know during a run how much you have helped. This is a coop game, not a competition between the members of your team. The earlier you realize that the faster you understand what the game is about and that will increase your skill.
All your examples are terrible, because you should know what your build is doing during a run.
Yes damage taken matters, I like to work on getting hit less. Just because it’s inconsequential to you, doesn’t mean the majority of players wouldn’t benefit from it.
The majority of players, especially the average player, don’t have the situational awareness and memory to pick up on how they did each run in detail. They want to enjoy playing the game during the mission and take care of the stats when they have some breathing time, IE after the mission. Manually counting your special kills because reasons is mundane and silly.
You’ve consistently provided meaningless arguments that aren’t relative to the majority for why there shouldn’t be a scoreboard, from my perspective you’re spouting nonsense. Why shouldn’t we have a scoreboard?
Truth. Going for zero-damage runs in VT2 made me a much, MUCH better player.
Private scoreboard with just YourScore / TeamTotal. Problem solved.
example
if you run a map twice everything is the same:
the first time the scoreboard shows you took 500 dmg, you think to yourself not bad but ill try harder next time…
the second time to play the exact same map:
the scoreboard shows you took 800 dmg, so you think you played much worse
what the game didnt tell you is the second time there were a monster and twice as many enemies so you actually played better…
But is that a reason to remove the scoreboard? It isnt. Yes, those stats could change and a player would notice that the 2nd time was more difficult with more enemies, and notice that despite that they performed well still.
Scoreboard stats give a sense of Accomplishment. One of the primary reasons we all play video games is for that sense of accomplishment. Removing one of the factors that gives that feeling is utterly pointless.
You could argue a private scoreboard solves the problem.
To which my question is. What is the problem it solves?
Are the arguments “I just enjoyed having a scoreboard” and “I liked doing well and getting good stats” truly so unreasonable? Because I think its a pretty normal gamer thing to like.
Very clearly a lot of people seem to enjoy the scoreboard for one reason or another. While it occurs to me that a, frankly, tiny number of people didn’t like it due to toxicity reasons.
Its hard not to see this as a situation of “a few people misused this, so we’re taking it away from everyone” and all other nonsense aside, that really sucks and I’m not thrilled by it.
This is one of those “I did nothing wrong, so why am I being punished?” situations.
If you wish to know what people mean by “toxicity” and why they oppose the board, here is a brief layout I made in another thread:
When people talk about “toxicity”, I don’t think they mean explicit calling out during the scoreboard screen. I have not witnessed that even once during my hundreds of hours of VT2. No, I think the “toxicity” they mean is much more subtle than that.
Vermintides and Darktide are team-based PVE games, so the competition is meant to be against the match itself. The team is supposed to work together to achieve victory and the game’s systems are supposed to encourage behavior that helps improve teamwork. Note: none of what I lay out necessarily applies to premade teams. I am talking about public matches.
When people know that by the end of the match they will inevitably be compared against each other, it creates a competitive environment within the team. We are humans, our minds just automatically work like that when we are in any way “pitted against others”. Some will be affected only very mildly, some very strongly. For some the scoreboard becomes the victory. That may be fun among friends, but it creates an incentive for players to deviate from the team and take unnecessary risks to rake in more kills, all for the glorious green rings.
Public scoreboard affects little things too, like it discourages players for example “saving” some of the elite kills for the team-member that is very near and would benefit the most (ammo regen or such). One could just as well help slay the trash mobs around the elite to give the other player room to kill the elite mob. It would be both polite and efficient.
I am not saying that every player is heavily affected by the board. I am saying that if the incentive is there to have public recognition of most kills, it drives a number of players to treat the game more like a PVP game. At worst a 4-man team becomes 3-man team + 1 soloer and that often leads to disaster. You only need one in a team to sour the mood.
Without a public scoreboard, the incentive to attain personal glory would not be as great. Thus a greater number of games would become more team-oriented. Would some people solo even if there was no board? Absolutely, 100%. But without public incentives the number would be lower and teamplay would thus somewhat increase.
Those voice lines about Kerillian having a bet with Bardin about a kill count probably don’t help. It is built into the game one way or another, and saying that it’s not by design is hypicritical.
Oh I understand what you mean, don’t get me wrong. I just think the harm thats being created is respectfully overblown and I don’t like losing what I think is a fun and useful tool.
I completely get what you are talking about, I’ve just always viewed it as “friendly competition” when working towards a shared goal. Me and my friend do it when we play together and it actively adds to our enjoyment. Alternatively I might go anti horde in melee and my friend will choose to complement that by going anti armour/anti special, ironically making us a more effective team.
To me, Kerillians running off ahead to get the kills and inevitably dying to a disabler because they are alone and trying to hog all the kills is more of a meme than an actual reality. It certainly happens, but those players are not respected by those of us on either side of this discussion.
I’m a 100% green circle chaser and I’ll fully admit to that. I enjoy it. But I stick with the team, I strive to revive, I cover people properly, etc. And doing all this adds to my green circle chasing and my overall enjoyment. I revived someone, thats +1 to my revive score and I’m a team player. I cover someone’s back, thats +1 assist and I’m a team player. I snipe that special as quickly as I can, thats +1 special kill and I’m helping the team. Etc. Part of the issue, respectfully, is that I would still do all of these things even without the scoreboard, which kind of makes its removal rather pointless.