The fallacy of the scoreboard

watch em repeat the same argument a millionth time

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Winning option right here. The old scoreboard promoted an odd toxic challenge between players in V2 that grew worse as the playerbase thinned out into its veterancy and high levels grouped with lower levels who couldn’t provide as much for not having reds and max stat’d trinkets in a tier 3 difficulty. This way, the team contribution is given the greater focus and your personal contribution remains your personal contribution.

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I don’t understand how you can make a claim like this. Do you have any evidence at all to support this?

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I really love this game, and I love it when ever I get a good nice group where people check if everyone is following etc, and help eachother out, share ammo, and prioritise gameplay that is best for the team. Personally as a veteran when I see a Psyker locking in on an elite mob I start focusing on the minor ranged mobs around because it’s the efficient way to do a run. All this is going to change with scoreboard.

Once scoreboard is introduced I will pop my ability as Veteran and steal that Psyker kill to avoid being bitched about “poor performance” at the scoreboard. I will not pick off ranged mobs, for scoreboard it’s better to lay down on the melees until they are dead, then focus on the ranged mobs when the melee chars can’t, so my score board gets bigger. After that I will steal all the ammo for max scoreboard efficiency. Helping a downed player out will have to wait to the very last second so I can farm for scoreboard while the downed player can’t take “my kills”. Carrying objective items? No, will be shooting s#!t for scoreboard during an objective. Team coherency? No, will rush forward with sprint-talented weapons to farm for scoreboard, I’m sure I’ll be fine-sprint-shoot-sprint-shoot-sprint-shoot so you can ensure more blood for the scoregod, skulls for the skullboard.

If there will be a scoreboard, it HAS TO BE something else than just flat numbers performance, since the game is so much more than just a flat numbers peformance. Shooting ranged enemies as Veteran WILL BE inefficient for the scoreboard so it is directly going to F- up the smoothness of the runs, since it WILL change how I play the class, and how it’s supposed to play. If there HAS TO BE a scoreboard, then make it a personal stat sheet compared to the average of the rest of the group, but even then it WILL change how people play the game, for the worse. If you put it in, be damn sure to put it in a form that won’t F- up the intended way of playing the game: As a team game.

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Your argument is fundamentally flawed.

Yes, the scoreboard is not a perfect metric for working out how good your build is, or for trying to work out areas where you’re just not playing well. But how is the imperfect nature of the scoreboard an argument against it? You have completely failed to make even a basic argument as to why having NO information at all is better than imperfect information. Why does removing the scoreboard make you better informed than having no scoreboard? You do realise how completely nonsensical this is, right?

Your argument about the imperfect nature of the scoreboard is also entirely based on people using the scoreboard alone, which is not something people do. You use both the scoreboard and the general game feel to inform how well you’re doing.

Then there are also the aspects of a scoreboard that are just nice to have and aren’t necessary for informing anything about build or playstyle. In VT2, if we have a gruelling game with loads of kills and damage, I like to save a screenshot of it as a memory of our conquest. If I have a game where I end up carrying, I like seeing that reflected in the stats at the end. If somebody else carries, I like saying “nice job” upon seeing their bonkers stats.

You’re really stretching at arguments that have no logical foundation at all.

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Once scoreboard is introduced I will pop my ability as Veteran and steal that Psyker kill to avoid being bitched about “poor performance” at the scoreboard

Refer to previous comments made by myself and countless others in this thread. People bitching about scoreboard stats is extremely rare in VT2, so rare that many people with hundred of hours who rarely play any difficulty lower than Legend (myself included) have literally never seen it.

If you use the scoreboard as an excuse to stop being a team player, that is entirely your sin, not the fault of the scoreboard. I can guarantee that if anyone bitches at you, it will be because you are chasing kills, not because of bad stats.

I know this because this is exactly what happens in VT2. People who are technically skilled at the game but are bad team players because they chase kills are hated and reviled far more than people who just aren’t good at the game.

You’re making up a non-existent issue.

People like looking at increasing numbers, especially if it describes them. It’s the reason afk games exist. It’s a benchmark for how someone determines how effective they are playing. It will always be an average and not completely accurate, but that’s not the point. It can have negative aspects to it, snobby skilled players dunking on low skill players for not carrying their weight and what have you, but it comes with the territory. Ironically, those players don’t realize that their excellent contribution is the cause. Some people just need to grow up, and others need to have a thicker skin. That’s just people.

scoreboards aren’t just there magicly they have to be designed and implemented by hand vermintide had a scoreboard correct, darktide never had one and subsequently never got it scoreboard removed.
as @Padds said before his critism came after DT was playable. so you’re pretending any of his claims got anything removed. your attacking a reality that never existed.

“bad information is still better than nothing” is an argument that doesn’t stay afloat if we consider that “bad information” never existed in this game. its still needs dev time to implement, so yes all his claims are absolutely correct
and he doesn’t need to justify the removal as it never was there to begin with, you have the burden of proof why its worth anyone’s time to re implement a flawed design… ESPACCIALLY in the face of better options.

So kill chaser are more “reviled” than team players, yet you had just said above:

So which one is it? You said that I would be reviled for kill chasing, yet at the same time you say, that you would compliment me for my bonker stats. And I will get boker stats so thank you for your compliment in advance, but I would rather focus those snipers and bombers down while our frontline deals with the horde, sadly in order to gain your compliment I have to unload my nades and few clips into the horde while the frontline tanks some sniper shots and bombs before focusing those real threats down.

According to your own words, I would not be “carrying the team” by killing snipers but by killing the horde which the frontline could do on their own just fine, but it won’t be reflected in the scoreboard by any means since it’s just numbers, the bigger the number, the better the player. Scoreboard gives raw stats and takes numbers out of context, changing the narrative of the run in favour of selfish play.

I’m not fundamentally against scoreboard if it’s done right, and not just numbers. If they figure a way to have a scoreboard that does complex calculations and counts MUCH more than numbers then perhaps it could be better than worse for the game. If a sniper count as 100 kills opposed to horde trash counting as 1 etc, does it count me as the slayer of that rager who I simply landed the last shot on? Does damage mean anything or only kills? Does it count the time I spend carrying objectives instead of slaying? Make it a real scoreboard and not a numbers board and it might be better than worse for the game, even then it won’t reflect situational awareness or game saving plays.

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Real life politics are such a toxic cesspool because of “bad information” so I definately would rather have no information than bad information, because bad information warps reality.

I’m not fundamentally against a scoreboard but it has to have complex calculations of everything that happened in the game rather than raw numbers which only promote toxic gameplay, and even then it will be faulty and possible to manipulate. Also as said in this thread before and by Sulphuric_Glue too, no not everyone will be selfish/toxic, but the scoreboard promotes selfish gameplay while not offering any real value as far as I’m concerned at least.

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Kill chasing is different from carrying. You know this. I refuse to believe you can’t distinguish between the two.

Scoreboard gives raw stats and takes numbers out of context, changing the narrative of the run in favour of selfish play.

It’s not out of context. The context is the game that you just played. Yet again you’re falling into the same trap as everyone else who defends having no scoreboard, which is that you think people ONLY look at the stats and don’t combine that information with what they literally just saw ingame.

People can tell the difference very easily, even without much experience of the game, between somebody who has high stats because they were the most skilled player on the team - with good reflexes, good game sense and full understanding of their loadout - and someone who has high stats because they chased kills.

People can also recognise - again, even without much experience - that low stats does not necessarily correlate with bad play. In VT2, an Ironbreaker or Foot Knight will very rarely be top fragging, but they will often have low damage taken and you know from what you just played that they may still have been instrumental in staggering enemies and drawing aggro.

If a sniper count as 100 kills opposed to horde trash counting as 1 etc, does it count me as the slayer of that rager who I simply landed the last shot on? Does damage mean anything or only kills?

What are you actually even saying here? I have my doubts that you’ve ever played VT2 or even seen its scoreboard, because what you’re saying seems to give the impression you have no idea what we are actually asking for, and subsequently what you’re arguing against. What we want is VT2’s scoreboard adapted for Darktide.

This is what VT2’s scoreboard looks like, from a particularly gruelling game during the last Geheimnisnacht event.

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I’m countering the claim that the scoreboard is any good for the game which currently has nothing but anecdotal evidence. The way I see it the burden of proof is on the people saying the scoreboard is necessary since, by default, there is no scoreboard unless it’s added.

Still, the evidence you’re asking for is easy to produce because it’s extremely well-established that social competitions arise from people’s inclination to compare themselves to others. Scores are an easy way to do that. You can read more here, here and here. It’s all about ego, and since comparing score this way hurts some people’s fragile egos or gives some shallow people an ego boost, all the encouragement a toxic player needs is right there at the end of a match on the scoreboard.

Surely you must’ve known better than to think this could be otherwise unless you’ve never competed with others in your life because this is something most people know from firsthand experience.

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The scoreboard is coming, confirmed here and in the content stream.

I fear that whatever appears on the scoreboard will cause those people who are arguing intensely for the scoreboard to reappear will still be unhappy.

So a co-op game removing the scoreboard, adjusting what they measure and then relaunching it ~ presenting statistics that promote the kind of gameplay they’re after on a scoreboard is exactly what people of all stripes have been asking for, and somehow those people who have been quite caustic in their …demands… for a scoreboard will still be fuming about the scoreboard and display exactly the kind of egocentric behaviour that has prompted the removal of the scoreboard in the first place.

So if you’re arguing intensely for a scoreboard and it reappears then that’ll be you satisfied?

I have argued that the scoreboard AS IT STANDS IN VT2 is a terrible measure of anything as there is so much disparate information and wildly different classes/skills/builds/talents/weapon traits/ weapon stats… and so on that it’s impossible to gain anything effective from the scoreboard other than your own user-biased opinion.… which if you’re looking to improve or guage anything is wholly subjective and utterly pointless.

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Dude, you are toxic.

You are the reason you don’t like scoreboards.

It seems to me that people who don’t want/like scoreboards are toxic by nature and are trying to protect the community from themselves.

In my opinion, a scoreboard should be introduced in exactly the fashion you oppose so that the community can effectively be purged of toxic players just like yourself. It will take time, but it will be a net benefit.

People who play like you intend to play are not team players.

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There is no burden of proof you clowns.
We just want a scoreboard.
And if you don’t understand that then fukk off.
The more useless it is the better.

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If we leave you alone long enough do you think you’ll present enough of the kind of behaviour that prompted the removal of the scoreboard in the first place?

At this point your trolling, veiled insults and corrosive bahviour makes you the perfect poster-boy for why the scoreboards should be removed. Keep it up! you’re actively harming your own cause at this point!

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The scoreboard shared by Sulphuric Glue indicates to me that his teammates should all be saying thank you for the carry at the end of the match.

It also shows me that Sulphuric Glue should counter that by saying he got the most kills, but his teammates did a sh*t ton of supplemental damage - - allowing him to secure those kills.

This is all useful information and I don’t see how any of it promotes toxicity in any way. Toxicity is present regardless of a scoreboard. This guy above basically admits he will adopt toxic behavior if a scoreboard is introduced.

This means he’s a toxic player. There is no correlation between that and a scoreboard.

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I’ve been part of this discussion for a while now.
Long enough to realize that this is not about arguments anymore.
Both sides have made up their minds a long time ago.

I’m not gonna read for the 100th time that the scoreboard is actually useless and inaccurate.
I don’t give a shid anymore.

Apparently this is the kind of conversation that people want.

I’m not gonna give up and let some goober tell me that I’m wrong about the scoreboard and I’m toxic for wanting a scoreboard and I’m a green circle chaser and all that crap.

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i don’t like scorebords but i am not toxic i just don’t see why they are needed
“to make yourslfe better” is a ok thing to say but it is not 100% needed
But this is a mute point as they already statisd they are going to put one in in soem form
will i be happy that it is in NO
will i stop playing because of it NO
will it bring More toxic play into the game Most likely But not to much
player will always find a way to be toxic in games the adding of a scorebord will not make a big diff

i would like a scorebored that ONLY shows your own points and not the teams then the players know how well they did and will not start being toxic to the player that don’t have “green curcles”

Sorry is i spelled anything wrong in this i have dyslexia and can not spell to good

You are right.
But whenever I see a new post claiming the scoreboard is the worst I’m gonna answer appropriately.
If they can do their thing I can do mine.

The whole point of the scoreboard is that you see your scores in relation to the rest of the team though.