The fallacy of the scoreboard

scoreboards aren’t just there magicly they have to be designed and implemented by hand vermintide had a scoreboard correct, darktide never had one and subsequently never got it scoreboard removed.
as @Padds said before his critism came after DT was playable. so you’re pretending any of his claims got anything removed. your attacking a reality that never existed.

“bad information is still better than nothing” is an argument that doesn’t stay afloat if we consider that “bad information” never existed in this game. its still needs dev time to implement, so yes all his claims are absolutely correct
and he doesn’t need to justify the removal as it never was there to begin with, you have the burden of proof why its worth anyone’s time to re implement a flawed design… ESPACCIALLY in the face of better options.

So kill chaser are more “reviled” than team players, yet you had just said above:

So which one is it? You said that I would be reviled for kill chasing, yet at the same time you say, that you would compliment me for my bonker stats. And I will get boker stats so thank you for your compliment in advance, but I would rather focus those snipers and bombers down while our frontline deals with the horde, sadly in order to gain your compliment I have to unload my nades and few clips into the horde while the frontline tanks some sniper shots and bombs before focusing those real threats down.

According to your own words, I would not be “carrying the team” by killing snipers but by killing the horde which the frontline could do on their own just fine, but it won’t be reflected in the scoreboard by any means since it’s just numbers, the bigger the number, the better the player. Scoreboard gives raw stats and takes numbers out of context, changing the narrative of the run in favour of selfish play.

I’m not fundamentally against scoreboard if it’s done right, and not just numbers. If they figure a way to have a scoreboard that does complex calculations and counts MUCH more than numbers then perhaps it could be better than worse for the game. If a sniper count as 100 kills opposed to horde trash counting as 1 etc, does it count me as the slayer of that rager who I simply landed the last shot on? Does damage mean anything or only kills? Does it count the time I spend carrying objectives instead of slaying? Make it a real scoreboard and not a numbers board and it might be better than worse for the game, even then it won’t reflect situational awareness or game saving plays.

1 Like

Real life politics are such a toxic cesspool because of “bad information” so I definately would rather have no information than bad information, because bad information warps reality.

I’m not fundamentally against a scoreboard but it has to have complex calculations of everything that happened in the game rather than raw numbers which only promote toxic gameplay, and even then it will be faulty and possible to manipulate. Also as said in this thread before and by Sulphuric_Glue too, no not everyone will be selfish/toxic, but the scoreboard promotes selfish gameplay while not offering any real value as far as I’m concerned at least.

2 Likes

Kill chasing is different from carrying. You know this. I refuse to believe you can’t distinguish between the two.

Scoreboard gives raw stats and takes numbers out of context, changing the narrative of the run in favour of selfish play.

It’s not out of context. The context is the game that you just played. Yet again you’re falling into the same trap as everyone else who defends having no scoreboard, which is that you think people ONLY look at the stats and don’t combine that information with what they literally just saw ingame.

People can tell the difference very easily, even without much experience of the game, between somebody who has high stats because they were the most skilled player on the team - with good reflexes, good game sense and full understanding of their loadout - and someone who has high stats because they chased kills.

People can also recognise - again, even without much experience - that low stats does not necessarily correlate with bad play. In VT2, an Ironbreaker or Foot Knight will very rarely be top fragging, but they will often have low damage taken and you know from what you just played that they may still have been instrumental in staggering enemies and drawing aggro.

If a sniper count as 100 kills opposed to horde trash counting as 1 etc, does it count me as the slayer of that rager who I simply landed the last shot on? Does damage mean anything or only kills?

What are you actually even saying here? I have my doubts that you’ve ever played VT2 or even seen its scoreboard, because what you’re saying seems to give the impression you have no idea what we are actually asking for, and subsequently what you’re arguing against. What we want is VT2’s scoreboard adapted for Darktide.

This is what VT2’s scoreboard looks like, from a particularly gruelling game during the last Geheimnisnacht event.

6 Likes

I’m countering the claim that the scoreboard is any good for the game which currently has nothing but anecdotal evidence. The way I see it the burden of proof is on the people saying the scoreboard is necessary since, by default, there is no scoreboard unless it’s added.

Still, the evidence you’re asking for is easy to produce because it’s extremely well-established that social competitions arise from people’s inclination to compare themselves to others. Scores are an easy way to do that. You can read more here, here and here. It’s all about ego, and since comparing score this way hurts some people’s fragile egos or gives some shallow people an ego boost, all the encouragement a toxic player needs is right there at the end of a match on the scoreboard.

Surely you must’ve known better than to think this could be otherwise unless you’ve never competed with others in your life because this is something most people know from firsthand experience.

1 Like

The scoreboard is coming, confirmed here and in the content stream.

I fear that whatever appears on the scoreboard will cause those people who are arguing intensely for the scoreboard to reappear will still be unhappy.

So a co-op game removing the scoreboard, adjusting what they measure and then relaunching it ~ presenting statistics that promote the kind of gameplay they’re after on a scoreboard is exactly what people of all stripes have been asking for, and somehow those people who have been quite caustic in their …demands… for a scoreboard will still be fuming about the scoreboard and display exactly the kind of egocentric behaviour that has prompted the removal of the scoreboard in the first place.

So if you’re arguing intensely for a scoreboard and it reappears then that’ll be you satisfied?

I have argued that the scoreboard AS IT STANDS IN VT2 is a terrible measure of anything as there is so much disparate information and wildly different classes/skills/builds/talents/weapon traits/ weapon stats… and so on that it’s impossible to gain anything effective from the scoreboard other than your own user-biased opinion.… which if you’re looking to improve or guage anything is wholly subjective and utterly pointless.

1 Like

Dude, you are toxic.

You are the reason you don’t like scoreboards.

It seems to me that people who don’t want/like scoreboards are toxic by nature and are trying to protect the community from themselves.

In my opinion, a scoreboard should be introduced in exactly the fashion you oppose so that the community can effectively be purged of toxic players just like yourself. It will take time, but it will be a net benefit.

People who play like you intend to play are not team players.

7 Likes

There is no burden of proof you clowns.
We just want a scoreboard.
And if you don’t understand that then fukk off.
The more useless it is the better.

3 Likes

If we leave you alone long enough do you think you’ll present enough of the kind of behaviour that prompted the removal of the scoreboard in the first place?

At this point your trolling, veiled insults and corrosive bahviour makes you the perfect poster-boy for why the scoreboards should be removed. Keep it up! you’re actively harming your own cause at this point!

1 Like

The scoreboard shared by Sulphuric Glue indicates to me that his teammates should all be saying thank you for the carry at the end of the match.

It also shows me that Sulphuric Glue should counter that by saying he got the most kills, but his teammates did a sh*t ton of supplemental damage - - allowing him to secure those kills.

This is all useful information and I don’t see how any of it promotes toxicity in any way. Toxicity is present regardless of a scoreboard. This guy above basically admits he will adopt toxic behavior if a scoreboard is introduced.

This means he’s a toxic player. There is no correlation between that and a scoreboard.

4 Likes

I’ve been part of this discussion for a while now.
Long enough to realize that this is not about arguments anymore.
Both sides have made up their minds a long time ago.

I’m not gonna read for the 100th time that the scoreboard is actually useless and inaccurate.
I don’t give a shid anymore.

Apparently this is the kind of conversation that people want.

I’m not gonna give up and let some goober tell me that I’m wrong about the scoreboard and I’m toxic for wanting a scoreboard and I’m a green circle chaser and all that crap.

7 Likes

i don’t like scorebords but i am not toxic i just don’t see why they are needed
“to make yourslfe better” is a ok thing to say but it is not 100% needed
But this is a mute point as they already statisd they are going to put one in in soem form
will i be happy that it is in NO
will i stop playing because of it NO
will it bring More toxic play into the game Most likely But not to much
player will always find a way to be toxic in games the adding of a scorebord will not make a big diff

i would like a scorebored that ONLY shows your own points and not the teams then the players know how well they did and will not start being toxic to the player that don’t have “green curcles”

Sorry is i spelled anything wrong in this i have dyslexia and can not spell to good

You are right.
But whenever I see a new post claiming the scoreboard is the worst I’m gonna answer appropriately.
If they can do their thing I can do mine.

The whole point of the scoreboard is that you see your scores in relation to the rest of the team though.

i get the point is to see your scores in relation to the rest of the team that was just my onwn like lol

BUT anyone that says this will NOT bring SOME toxic players know that it will, JUST a LITTLE bit

but as i say if a player wants to be toxic they will find away so a scorebored to them will make no diff to them

You asked for real evidence to support my claim that scoring promotes competitive behavior over cooperative behavior and I produced it. I don’t know who you’re talking about or why you’re comparing an anecdote to actual studies on social competition. Perhaps you replied to the wrong person.

1 Like

You know, I think while we’re at it, we should remove the red hitmarkers that tell you you’ve killed an enemy. It’s objective information that causes the problem. If nobody knows anything about what is happening, there can’t be a problem. You could even make the screen go black for a second just before something dies, so nobody knows who landed the killing blow.

I actually think @J_Cato made a brilliant observation here:

Real life politics are such a toxic cesspool because of “bad information” so I definately would rather have no information than bad information, because bad information warps reality.

When you think about it, cold factual numbers are the root cause of all misinformation. Sure, it takes a cynical and dishonest human being to deliberately misinterpret them, but actually it’d just be better if nobody had access to information of any kind and they weren’t given the chance to think for themselves. Better that nobody has even the chance to fail to behave properly, so that we’re protected.

Personally, I hate knowing things. But even if nobody knows who killed what, people might still get thirsty for killing mobs, and compete - so I think actually we should just remove weapons from the game entirely, that way there can be no competition between players. It’s just a mad dash to the exit. Oh, dang it, but then someone would get to the exit first.

You know what, actually just cancel video games. They’re toxic. Because they contain competitive information.

10 Likes

This Jcato guy really did betray himself here

I’ve been nothing but a team player in the game so far, always checking that the laggers behind don’t get in trouble, tagging anything important, letting Psykers get their BB’s off while focusing on the second best thing, even waiting around at ammo if someone seems to be needing it more when it’s quiet, and I never complain, not even when people are seemingly throwing. But I guess I’m toxic because I don’t want a badly implemented scoreboard which promotes toxic crap like the sarcastic example I said earlier.

It’s not different on a scoreboard though, if it’s simple numbers based like you just posted an example of. And when the numbers on scoreboard becomes the objective of the game there will be no difference for a lot of people. Anyway, Fatshark has said they will implement a scoreboard so be happy and go chase those green circles, it will still be a great game to those too who prefer a more cooperative setting.

You really don’t get it, do you? Why are you incapable of understanding this? It’s really hard to not get frustrated with you.

The scoreboard is NOT the only thing that informs a player about the performance of themselves and their teammates. THE GAME THEY JUST PLAYED DOES AS WELL. I really can’t fathom why almost everyone arguing against the scoreboard here does not take this into consideration, it’s actually staggering.

Why are you always so insistent on treating the scoreboard like a completely independent thing? Do you actually think players will completely disregard anything they see in the game and only focus on the numbers at the end? Is the last 20-30 minutes of their memory completely wiped?

Maybe you’re the kind of person who will only care about these numbers and not take the game into consideration, and you’re projecting it onto others. I can promise you 99% of other players do not think this way.

4 Likes