The eternal cycle continues - When will you break free? @Fatshark

The short of it:
Now, you know I love you guys.
Which is why I post here in the first place. Yet, somebody has to say it:

This endless reworking of already established content is doing yourself a disserve @FatsharkLev

The cycle:

  1. You guys come up with a concept for your game.
  2. “The people” (how many may vary) call for rebalance.
  3. You guys rebalance and rework the game tirelessly.
  4. You release the rebalance.
  5. “The people” (this time other people previously happy) call for rebalance.
  6. Get stuck in loop through step 3, 4 and 5


Detailled Description:

Listening to community feedback can be a good thing, but sometimes too much is just too much. You rebalance and tweak your games a lot more than big established PvP titles out there, which is insane. You guys are a smaller size AA studio, so every developer counts. Don’t get so hung up on stuff that already works.

The issue with this approach to development is twofold:

Firstly - You wind up spending a lot of time, effort and money, but your progress is impeded by redoing tasks you already “finished”.

Secondly - Constantly reworking the game causes “Tweak-Fatigue” in your audience. Few are interested in seeing the 5th class rework of what they once selected at the character screen. Something the class likely no longer resembles.

At this point when a patch drops, my immediately assumption is for it to be another “Hotfix + Rebalance”. Often I find myself vindicated.
Judging by some of the comments in the Steam forums, I’m not alone in this accessment. Somewhat biased, but relevant examples below:
(Trigger Warning: Hostility / disappointment from third-parties, but it is relevant here)


















The full thread of your latest update is roughly:
~30% - Already calling for new rebalance or more tweaks in either direction
~20% - People expressing exhaustion over rebalance tweaks or lack of content
+25% - “Love new Ogryn changes”
+25% - The usual trolling and chatter (a good sign actually) + “where solo modo?”

The first set of 50% is a problem in my book.

You guys have generally good ideas. You end up reworking everything too much and it costs you valuable time. Often you end up changing the game around a lot, but there is little to show for it after months of straining work on your end.
Vermintide 2 suffered in the same way for years and so did other projects in the past.

My call to action is simple:
Avoid getting held up by the little things, so you may achieve big success.

You have shown that you can do amazing stuff, so stop getting sidelined by these snark commentary threads on “muh balance” and do what you’re good at.

Never in my life have I seen a perfectly balanced game. One skilltree or ability will always wind up being “the noobtrap”, that’s just how these things go. New content will bring the old balance out of whack regardless. Perhaps you can even tailor some of the content to be hard countered by some of the weaker classes to give them use.

If you can help it, put some of those balance changes (if necessary) across the new content patches or important bug fixes. But never focus on balancing the game solely for extended periods of time. You will fall into the trap of eternally fixing what already works. You will end up repeating tasks every other week, which are neither fun nor productive for you.
You will go insane, as will your audience. And then Tzeentch will claim your tormented minds.

Instead:
Decide on one philosophy that reflects the gameplay you like, stick this philosophy through your content and stay true to yourself. Only you know what you want the game to feel like. Go with your gut. Be audacious. Be the fat mother-:duck:-ing shark your company logo presents. Be the apex of the watery deep! You can do it! But you have to focus on the prey, not the glittering sun from above.

Best regards
Mayson / Ponyeater

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I agree with you on the surface, but there are several weapons that were nerfed back at launch that are still in that same, heavily nerfed, useless state. There are also weapons that were never good fun or decent to begin with (eg Headhunter autoguns). There are also weapon variants that are quite literally pointless, that need sorting out.

If the game had been released in a SOLID state, then yes, they should have just kept adding to the game. But they released it in a mess, and here we are still trying to put things in order.

Still, what you say has a great deal of wisdom to it. If we accept that there are bits of gear, and aspects of classes that need fixing as opposed to balancing then I stand in support of what you say here.

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zealot has 1 build, 2 if you use book, the tree is badly designed and needs to be reworked, if you haven’t noticed that…

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Alternate universe? I might have to re-read your post because that’s just not true.

  • Balance changes are highly infrequent.
  • Have little-to-no material effect other than the occasional big nuke.
  • Rarely change the meta.

I mean - how many players are still using the Antax? Still using knives? Still running shout? Columnus (Vraks) IAG.

IDK - where has this come from?!

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All good and fair points. I concede that some balancing and adjusting is necessary.

Still, we’ve been getting nothing but Hotfixes and Balance patches for a while. The droughts before the last content patches also were the same. It leads to a feeling of meaningless update bulks.

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This is a good wrap-up, but most of the reasons you had brought up I can’t agree with.

That’s not the point of it. The gist of it is: people generally want to have reasons to play and return to playing Darktide. The reasons usually wound up to one of the two or a mix of both:

  • new content
  • rebalance of the existing content

Because… what’s the point of having new content if it’s just another map you will beat with the same build, over and over again. How long will you be able to enjoy that gameplay loop if no new skill build options are introduced with changes, big or small? The game will not thrive with new content only; it’s what gives dedicated test groups a purpose, also, since FS has been relying on these for testing content for quite a long time.

The two opportunities I have mentioned are the only facets through which game still operates and likely is profitable. These two opportunities create a window through which the devs can deliver a fun experience, and attempt selling items through the Commodore’s Vestures, since it being updated with “more expensive” item bundles on big patch releases is no coincidence. Watch it happen with Nightmares and Visions in two weeks’ time. Fatshark needs to sell these items in order to keep the game afloat, and they have just about the best fandom to sell it to - WH40K.

But let’s not beat around the bush.

Problem is, this isn’t exactly a staple concept. FS has mostly been adjusting the games they make to peoples’ feedback, because people generally know what makes the game fun and engaging. The feedback on certain topic piles up eventually - these are the directions that are usually taken into consideration for either of the reasons I had typed about.

They are the only relevant organism in the niche/“sea”/“ocean” of having a melee-centric horde shooter game. They don’t have anything to prey on. They do things that are fun. The game will have its Chaos Wastes released in 1.5 to 2 years, because it’s fun and it’s what will keep the game interesting despite “Adventure-type” content being in focus right now (and the N&V update will probably give us something akin to Fortunes of War from VT2, but with replayability embedded in it).

It’s why we’ve gotten Havoc - FS knows that there will never (or not soon) be an opportunity for modded difficulty content in Darktide, but there are people orphaned from VT2 that want to enjoy DT at a high difficulty ceiling, while having the experience opened to more casual people. They developed a solution to this problem, so that people that want to dedicate their time to beat the game’s most difficult content have a carrot-on-a-stick to chase, and people that seek higher challenge than base game difficulties but don’t want to jump straight to high-Havoc, can also enjoy that at lower levels.

The game fundamentally still has technical debt that rears its ugly head once in a while, ever since the skill rework update 2 years prior. It’s why, like

  • @DornIvanotic has rightly observed, Zealot has 2 builds tops,
  • It’s why Ogryn has basically had 2 builds tops and 2 melee/ranged weapon options top. Ogryn melee weapons and Twin-linked heavy stubbers design in general has been flawed since release, since these weapons don’t involve interesting gameplay choices or niches to engage with (Ogryn’s pickaxes are one of the most well-designed weapons in the game, though!),
  • the remaining classes still have gameplay ventures (skills) that largely remain unused, be it Zealot’s Shroudfield, Veteran’s Infiltrate or Smoke grenades,
  • Dueling sword. Need I type more?

Some design just doesn’t work in the current state of the game, and it likely never will, because it either solves issues that can be circumvented through other means, or because it doesn’t do it in a manner that is interesting/fun. People don’t take Loner to make the game fun - they take it to finish a penance and never touch the aura ever again - these things should eventually be reworked.

Whether it’s because the game doesn’t feature content where these tools are usable, or because some things are flawed in their design (yellow toughness) is up for debate, but I know that…

They shouldn’t do that at all. This is anti-fun by its definition. If you need to create a problem for problem’s sake (i.e., having people gravitate towards these options to overcome a challenge), this is what one calls a waste of resources.

And yet you didn’t bring up any of them in your post. Why? I agree that there are things FS should be cherished for, but the way you put it doesn’t give it weight, at least not of the emotional variety.

There are certain other points I could bring up, but I don’t want this balloon-of–a-reply to burst, so I will leave it at that for now.

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You are so wrong.

It’s almost bullying, but let’s compare to DRG: https://steamdb.info/app/548430/patchnotes/

That’s a PvE game which does just about everything right. All FS has to do is look at how they do things. Dig through the updates. Lots of weapon rebalancing and guess what, the players don’t throw a fit because nerfs and buffs are small, incremental and regularly.

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Rebalancing is the spice of video games without there is only stagnation and death.

Content helps too but new maps and modes fall to the wayside once consumed remaking talent tree and trying new weapons and combat styles is the lifeblood of Fatsharks games

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Are we really at a point where we’re argueing about content vs balance updates in an “it has to be either or”- argument while in truth both should happen simultaenously?

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Because they designed/balanced/tested things poorely in the first place.

Look how many of fixes are basicaly what community were suggesting. Battery charge for power weapons were suggested like day 1 probably, now we kinda have it with 2h power swords (reversed but still). Suggestions to fix ogryn light attacks being useless, he’s stucking in trashmobs, finally fixed.

Watch 6 monthes later they will fix left vet branch and marksman playstyle by adding more defensive layers be it talents or blessings for scoping/aiming and removing “if there is no enemies within 8m” nonsense talents. This is such an easy and nobrain thing to fix, but it will take them forever to implement obvious stuff people told them already.

It’s just FS are too slow and afraid to change things. They tend to stick to the bad ideas just cause they spent time developing them. Then they will waste 6-12 monthes to rework it just to bring to a “fine” level it should have been from the start.

Now we are in the fixing Havoc arc.

Yes, but this just means devs should always work on the balance. Balancing is a neverending routine.

Like they are creating those problems for themselves, it’s not a crazy idiotic demands players forced on them. Test better, communicate with the community deeper.

I don’t think they can handle early access, but FS is the type of studio that would benefit from implementing community suggestions fast enough (with some reimagination) and open testings. Meanwhile no beta patches, no testing server.

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Yeah this is the dumb part.

Fatshark is slow of its own volition, there’s nothing preventing it from doing both beyond their poor management. Little changes would be easy to make.

Constant, small buffs or nerfs shipping with those every-two-week ‘hotfixes’ would be enough to keep people satisfied.

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as I said in an other topic:

Except for what is really broken, I would like that they stop the talent tree reworks.

I would say, for me at least, martyr purpose on zealot andfor the Veteran keystones triggers and smoke grenades… and then they deliver us a new class… tire0d to see reworks…

Edit about smoke grenades, why they are not as friendly as are the smoke grenade of the dwarf in VT2. Retested VT2, but I don’t really understand it and I feel the UI too confusing, so it is already uninstalled. But played the dwarf and I could use a smoke grenade that was not an handicap..

Been playing this game since launch and agree 100%. Every update is just a hotfix with pages of things nobody ever noticed. “Fixed an issue where pox walker could sometimes not spawn in corridor of special event HAB-HL17.”

Even if some weapons suck, I use them to challenge myself. Not every weapon needs to clear a room, some can just be there for the sake of a challenge or handicap.

But according to these comments, we now see that so many people rather be stuck in a loop of balance than have actual content added. Its sad.

Although I have 1000 hours invested, which is the highest amount I’ve ever played in a game, it has grown STALE. I can no longer play further than the moment I get downed, which I then turn off the game and do something else.

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I have no proof, but its quite possible things have quite literally been planned this way for the year. They might infact want to release new content with the Warhammer Skulls event for the summer.

The schedule would look like:

March - Mortis trials, Havoc rebalance, ogryn rebalance
June - New map, new weapons, story exapanded.

The reason is pretty obvious, the new content is advertised for free for them by GW.

I’m convinced as well that the only reason Ogryn got this rework is data on their end, not feedback. Ogryn is likely picked significantly less than the other 3 classes, and thats the sole reason.

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Exactly this, balance changes are honestly less work than new content and should come alongside new content to make the game feel fresh again.

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Oh, he might be me:

Balance is important and polishing things is good. I only play Darktide now when a good balance patch and/or fun gamemode comes out. This is because, while the game has an amazing gameplay loop, if the balance is a lopsided mess then the replay value drastically drops for me and many other people. If Darktide had more well measured balance patches to drastically increase viable playstyle diversity then I would probably have triple+ the hours in it.

Take into consideration just how EASY some balance changes can be. Is a weapon or talent either useless or overpowered? Just tweak the numbers or conditions slightly to make it function viably. Is the meta getting dominated by a single weapon (DS) that trivializes the game, even for people not using it since their random teammates will be? Nerf the stupidest parts.

Literally just opening up the code and changing a few numbers in a way that makes sense is all it can take to improve the game. Balance patches are an easy win for everyone and they don’t take up a lot of resources. People working on new maps and gamemodes aren’t going to all be the ones that just tweak the numbers on a few weapons and skills anyways. In fact since balance patches improve player retention then releasing more makes other projects the developers are working on worth more, because more people will stick around longer after content releases come out.

Good game balance is a force multiplier for a game’s long term success.

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