Suggestions for the Ogyrn Talent Tree

[Dyemoon]

In My opinion, Ogyrn still has some of the least flexible options for talent tree builds.
It is a much better layout then it was in the past, but compared to other classes, Ogyrn still doesn’t have nearly as much build variety.

I don’t have over five hundred of hours in the game but I still feel the ogryn limitations.
A lot of those Limitations come from ogryn’s crappy weapons and While I feel a ton of Ogryn’s Weapons need improvements, I want to mainly cover some of the Talent Tree Tweaks I have in mind that might help.

Fist Starting with the Top of talent Tree.

I would suggest swapping LynchPin and The Best Defence.

As these Talents are currently positioned on the Talent Tree it makes going for the Furious Talent less Desirable because people going for a melee damage build usually aren’t focused on Coherency Toughness Regeneration.
Simply swapping these two Talents would still allow for players to easily make a toughness build if they desire while allowing melee damage builds a tiny bit more flexibility.

Another Topic I saw suggested Merging Lynchpin and Towering Defense into one Talent and then creating another Talent that increases range damage to Replace Towering Defense.

[Polls] Ogryn Talents

Ogryn talent tree needs some final tweaks to round out the weaker areas in range / tank tree as well as balancing for general consistency in tree. Then it may ascend to blueprint for future class trees. Swap Lynchpin and Furious Swap Steady Grip and Towering Presence Lynchpin becomes Towering Pin: +50% Coherency Toughness regen and radius. simultaneously, combine all similar class coherency radius & regen talents, in this way. Reasoning: They are generally the weakest talents and regen…

I like this idea a lot more.
I personally feel Lynchpin and Towering Defense would be better merged into one Talent, but I would also be okay if this doesn’t happen.
Just so long as the Lynchpin and The Best Defence talents are swapped.

Next suggestion for the Ogyrn Talent Tree would be for the Blitz selections.

My only suggestion for Bombs Away would be Increase Bombs Away To Releasing 9 Grenades on hitting an enemy and just simply do away with Bigger Box Of Hurt.

Pyskers and Ogryns are the only classes in the game to have to spend another Talent Point to unlock the full potential of their Blitz selection.
Ogyrns are already have to be careful with their Talent Points in harder difficulties in order to keep up with other classes.

I basically have the same Suggestion for the Big Friendly Rock as I did for Bombs Away.
Remove That One Didn’t Count from the Talent tree and merge it into Big Friendly Rock.

I don’t Have a lot of changes for most Talents between Abilities and Blitz selection.
Main Talent I feel is the weakest here is Strongman

I feel if this talent gave +12% resistance for 7 seconds on Elite or specialist Kill it would be a much better Talent.

Now The Area I Have the most desire for changes is once you get to the Ogryn’s Ability Selections.
Most of the Abilities are positioned to make it really hard to get to the other side of the talent tree and one Ability In particular called Point-Blank Barrage is in desperate need of some adjustments.

First My changes to Point-Blank Barrage

I do not understand why this Ability has an 80 second cool-down and I think it should be reduced to a 50 or 60 second cool-down.
This cool-down is by far the worst thing about this Ability and it cannot be understated how little useability this ability has on higher difficulties.
Next I would make the Ability have a 15% Range damage bonus to all ranged attacks and not just close ranged.

For the Ability Modifier Bullet Bravado I would add on that while Point-Blank Barrage is active you also gain +10% Toughness regeneration while holding your ranged weapon.

If FatShark Really feels this is too strong then maybe they can nerf the +15% toughness on reload to a +12% on reload if something has to be nerfed.
However, I really feel this ability as a whole is just so weak that I don’t feel like anything about it should be nerfed and it all should be buffs.

Now for Probably my most drastic change suggestion.

This Section of the Talent Tree is my most hated part.
It locks you out of certain Talents if you take certain Abilities and is really costly to get from one side to the other.

Sorry for my terrible photoshop skills but this is a slight change to the Talent tree that I think would make it so much better and remove some of the headaches that I personally have with Ogryns talent tree.

For my final few Talent changes I can think of

This should increase ammo reserve by about 36%. That or give Ogyrn a way to regenerate ammo.
Ogryn has a hard time dealing a decent amount of damage per ammo crate with his a few of his ranged weapons, especially when compared to other classes, and so Ogryn has to chew through a lot more ammo.
you basically have to have the team agree to let the big guy have almost all the ammo stashes in the map on higher difficulties.

This applies way too little burn stacks. Basically You get an extra 2 DPS per second for about 7 seconds per explosion.

In my opinion Burst Limiter Override Should have a 20% chance for a Lucky Bullet. this would help with Ogryns ammo problem a tiny bit and also feel better on some weapons

I think that this should function where it removes a stack after every bullet you fire instead of losing all stacks for a single bullet.

I think that is most of the changes I can think of I hope something is done with the Ogryn talent Tree. I love Playing Ogryn but just not on higher difficulties.
My Changes to the Talent Tree come from the perspective of a player who runs mostly gunner builds right now. There is probably a Lot that I missed and could be tweaked a bit better.

[Raichu]

@Dyemoon

Another Topic I saw suggested Merging Lynchpin and Towering Defense into one Talent and then creating another Talent that increases range damage to Replace Towering Defense.

Obligatory self-YES

@Dyemoon

I think it should be reduced to a 50 or 60 second cool-down.

Yep

@Dyemoon

Remove That One Didn’t Count from the Talent tree and merge it into Big Friendly Rock.

I thought they were going to be moving into more of these modifiers but with last three tree updates at once really only makes sense for Psyker’s now removing em from Ogryn

@Dyemoon

This Section of the Talent Tree is my most hated part.

The abilities and Auras are inverted on Ogryn beside the sections feeling clunky and outdated should be freshened up now that the other tree all align.

Overall he needs some freshening and updating… tweaks as I’ve suggested with minor tree re-arranging.

[dannylew8299]

@Dyemoon

feel if this talent gave +12% resistance for 7 seconds on Elite or specialist Kill it would be a much better Talent.

15% for 15 seconds.

All these crazy tight sub < 10 second buffs on elite or specialist kills is why people treat this game like competitive pvp.

@Dyemoon

In my opinion Burst Limiter Override Should have a 20% chance for a Lucky Bullet

40% or more chance for free shot or bust. Not applicable to Rumbler or something i dunno

[Dyemoon]

Asking for 15% for 15 seconds is a bit too much.
on certain difficulties and mission modifiers that basically means you can have 15% resistance almost all the time.

I asked for 12% for 7 seconds because, as the Talent is currently set up, it often goes away before you can get in close enough to the next bomber or gunner and kill them.

…

Asking for 40% chance is also a bit much.
I am asking for a small buff because it would be nice on certain builds.

However, the more I think about it, as long as Back Off gets changed so it only loses a stack for each shot instead of losing all stacks on a single shot then it would basically do everything I am asking for and there wouldn’t be a change needed for Burst Limiter Override.

Even if Back Off was to lose 2 stacks per shot instead of losing every stack than that would make me a lot happier.
Each Shot would go from a +100% for Lucky Bullet to a +80% then a +60% then to a +40% and then to a +20% and so on.

[dannylew8299]

@Dyemoon

Asking for 15% for 15 seconds is a bit too much.
on certain difficulties and mission modifiers that basically means you can have 15% resistance almost all the time.

How? 15% is just sort of a standard number. It does nothing by itself. The defensive talents in this part of the tree are meant to be used with the rest of his defensive talents at the bottom of the tree in order to accomplish anything at all. But the trigger required is in competition with the team. So you’re really not getting use out of it until late where Ogryn’s TTK just happens to be much lower than the rest of the team. The best Ogryn builds currently path through just one talent and skip the rest because the values of everything in this section is so low that you need to save talent points. And the 15 second window is needed to allow Ogryn players to use off-meta weapons. Less competition is better and healthier for the game.

@Dyemoon

Asking for 40% chance is also a bit much.
I am asking for a small buff because it would be nice on certain builds.

And I’m asking for a big buff because it’s one of the worst builds in game. Kind of hard to gauge what too much is when the powercreep has spiraled as out of control as it is, what’s having a little less than half of your ammo free compared to Scum, Veteran, or Psyker?

On top of that, the talents on the right side of the tree are just so bad. You give up all of your safety and melee killing potential just to get to the Lucky Bullet keystone so you can shoot more. A ton of small, extremely conditional buffs that only work for half of the guns and go away as soon as you trigger them. All while the Ogryn player sucks up map resources to do a lot of nothing.

If fatshark really does have no intention of improving Ogryn guns than the more morally correct choice would be to make PBB give free ammo so Ogryn players can cope with their newfound build diversity potential. Excluding Rumbler, of course.

[Grendor]

I agree on the PBB change and blitz changes, PBB is just crippled by its insane cooldown. The cooldown would be fine if you had infinite ammo for the duration.

Otherwise I agree that the weapons are very anemic on ogryn, for example take ripper guns.
They are pretty meh, what I’d do is
-buff unyielding armor damage multiplier to around 1.0 or 1.1, would make them perfect for boss killing
-give them tighter spread, would make give the guns more effective range and can land more pellets onto 1 enemy

As for other changes, I hope they buff the blitzes too. Fragbomb just feels awful currently seeing the hive scum missile launcher, which is just a direct upgrade to it. Maybe they could give us 2 frag bombs? And for the box and rock they should just combine the modifiers into the base blitz.

Other few talents they should buff are
-Heavy Weight, change it so that is applies to all monstrosities and all ogryn enemies instead of just against crushers, bulwarks, reapers and plague ogryns. It’s really weird that it doesn’t.
-Won’t Give In, it’s just genuinely BAD and useless as a talent. Don’t know how to fix this, needs an entire rework
-Crunch, the 30% impact bonus is nice, but the damage is lacking, also its placement isn’t great within the tree
-Brutish Strength, only applying 4 stacks of 2.5% brittleness is kinda meh
These are just a few I can think of the top of my head.

Also the biggest one
FNP, just rework/redesign this entire keystone it just feels useless currently.

[Frish]

I often look longingly at Furious, but Lynchpin is hard to justify. I feel like it was a staple before the talent tree rework? I like the idea of making it more of an option.

Same with the incredible photoshop job, the current setup makes ranged/melee hybrid Ogryn lose a lot of melee power in Batter, Smash, and… Beat? The heavy attack followup goodness. At any rate it’s very limiting if you want PBB as you say.

Blitz point tax is also a major nuisance especially when you have a build and want to just swap blitzes. I don’t find either blitz perk to be that amazing it would break the game to just give them for free. If not, consider a perk on the nuke to even it out why not

The burn is pretty depressing, it would be cool to have either a synergy with burning targets or just more damage.

Anyways I like these ideas

[Dyemoon]

After Some Thought I just wanted to change my mind on somethings.

@Dyemoon

I think that this should function where it removes a stack after every bullet you fire instead of losing all stacks for a single bullet.

After messing with Ogryn Rumbler for a while now I still think back off should lose stacks instead of dumping all of it into a single bullet but now I think this should lose 5 stacks per shot fired.

The Ogryn Rumbler is the main thing making me want to change my mind about this.
The Rumbler is by far Ogryn’s best gun and is the biggest pothole in my dreams of having a buffed Ranged Ogryn Build because any Talent buffs will also buff the Rumbler.

@Dyemoon

For my final few Talent changes I can think of

This should increase ammo reserve by about 36%. That or give Ogyrn a way to regenerate ammo.

I don’t want an Ogryn that can regenerate ammo but still want the ammo stash increased by at least 30%.
Even Though the Ogryn Rumbler will still benefit from the increased ammo stash the Rumbler still could use a few extra rounds.
There are other guns that could use a bigger boost to their ammo stash but it would be more beneficial to just boost the ammo reserve on the gun itself without the Talent

.
These are my main changes I have had second thoughts about. All my other Thoughts remain the same.

[Frish]

The other thing I’ve found while running BLO on the guns with 1 in the magazine is that it feels super jank to get the free bullet. I would much prefer something deterministic to track if I have a magic bullet in my chamber!

[Dyemoon]

@Frish

The other thing I’ve found while running BLO on the guns with 1 in the magazine is that it feels super jank to get the free bullet

I kind of understand your feeling.

With guns like the Rumbler I have found myself developing a terrible habit to just keep clicking until my character reloads.
It can be a waste of ammo in some situations.

I wish BLO was set up a bit different so the player knew when they have a lucky bullet ready to fire. Even if they aren’t running Back Off.
.
.
.
I can’t think of any ways to rework Burst Limiter Override off the top of my head.
I tried to think of a system so when lucky bullet triggers it would add ammo to the next time you reload instead of your current clip/magazine but I don’t think that would be any less janky.

[Frish]

I think it could be as simple as a sound effect, like the power maul. Just to know you have shot a magic bullet without eyeing the ammo counter.

Unfortunately I think the perk as a whole was more designed for guns akin to the twin-linked, even though the force multiplier turns out being less than the lower mag guns.

[Gideon404]

The solution is to nerf the hell out of rumbler ammo reserve capacity at the same time as introducing the general ammo% talent buffs. Force ranged specs using the rumbler to be dependant on (the new version of) Back Off so it’s still viable but requires more diverse gameplay to sustain.

[Dyemoon]

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@Dyemoon

I do not understand why this Ability has an 80 second cool-down

I have seen some of the changes planned for next update from youtube videos.
By far my biggest hope is that someone on the dev team still would consider giving this ability at least a 75 second cooldown before the update officially rolls out .

Many of the changes I have seen look good for next update.
There is many more changes I still would like to see but by far a smaller cooldown for this ability is among my biggest desires.