I mean, you can go multiple rounds in a row without ever using a smoke.
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Hah. Well, yes, you’ve a fair point there. 
I’ve just never seen anyone use smoke grenades “well”. Admittedly, I think I’ve only ever seen smokes used in two or three games out of thousands, and they made no difference to my game those few times.
I suspect it’s also easier to convince yourself they’re useful by assuming you’re helping the team based on some objective you’ve decided to solve with smoke. Given how rare smokes are, and how a good team don’t struggle with range anyway, I suspect it’s a bit like the Warhammer Age of Reckoning skill “Hold the Line” (look it up 
) - one that the user thinks is doing a solid team job, but everyone else is a bit “meh”. Sure you can shut down a sniper with smoke. Or you can just ping him, and someone shoot him.
I use Krak 'nades currently. It’s an easy choice for me. I have a gap in my damage types (carapace) - Krak fills it nicely. I know exactly what I’m getting with each throw; I can reduce a dangerous pack of 6 crushers to two or three with two quick throws, and that’s far more manageable for the team. It’s an obvious team saver. And they’re very low effort since they seem to be magnetic and home in on the target (20% for 80% 
).
And … on that last point. IMO you should never have a weapon in a game that’s all round “the best” but effectively reserved for only a small proportion of the player base. It just funnels any real choice. Weapons should have roles with strengths and weaknesses; so you can be an all-rounder, or focus on some particular challenging aspect of the game in your team. But if one weapon is competitively the best, then we’ve all got to get it … even if we don’t all use it as well. DT is okay for it, but I think we all know why there’s clamouring for a balance patch (cough, plasma).
(* typo edits. It was bothering me!)
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And one could go through entire round without firing their gun a single time.
The point is, you dont need frag grenade, so replacing it with Smoke isn’t that bad.
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its also not bad, not replacing them?
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Any my point is that smokes are a whole lot less useful than frags. Frags get used many times every run to purposeful effect. Getting purposeful effect out of a smoke is a “once every few runs” scenario. The VAST majority of smokes do nothing of value for anyone except that vet who’s all “lookit me guys, I’m helping!”. They’re like the ogryn who plonks shield and stands still for the entire fight.
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A manageable number of ranged like 1 sniper etc. aren’t enough for a smoke, they’re intended for way more than that. But regarding the assumption thing, you could well be right about that. It’s only fairly recently (past few months) after the various smoke buffs that I started really using them myself, or have seen them used well. As much as I love to fiddle around and meticulously test everything and all the time, most of my builds tend to go with the other nades instead. And since I play with pubs I don’t know for sure what their experience was either, so I’m not claiming to be some smoke nade specialist here. 
That said, I’ve played DT since release and have an embarrasing number of hours & experience in the game so far. And I have a looooong history of gaming as a support & heal main on top of my neurodivergence, making me habitually pay attention to stuff like this. And if nothing else, I at least know plenty of situations from a personal PoV when pinned down & overwhelmed with no cover or room to reposition, only for a smoke or two to easily fix the problem. Still, it definitely wouldn’t be the first time I’ve made a mistake and reached a wrong conclusion, not even close.
Yeah absolutely, in builds like these krak would be the way to go! I tend to change my builds around all the time since I get bored with any one thing after 1-2 matches in a row, so there’s rarely ever any one blitz, ult etc. that I run exclusively. But obviously I agree that if your build doesn’t have a way to handle either mixed hordes or biggies, then putting the blitz on frag or krak would usually be way better than getting a smoke.
Oh yes absolutely! If I said or implied this then sorry, I fully agree with you here. This kind of stuff actually does happen in competitives far too often and I’ve never been a fan of that either. I meant that more along the lines of “overall strongest” for some specific roles considering the meta, not just flat out strongest period. I guess the problem here is that blurred line, it isn’t always easy to tell when something is too strong or not.
Plasma is actually a great example of both that blurring and why I definitely agree with you there! It’s meta for a reason: super strong, cleaves, works for everything the game throws at you. But plasma has horrible finesse bonuses (+30% weakspot or crit / +50% both). All +finesse dmg is based on that portion specifically, which can get pretty extreme with something like an Agripinaa shotty (~+110/190% on secondary, +100/170% on special) for instance.
That Agripinaa shotty with Scattershot & Man-Stopper and every crit & weakspot & finesse talent on top will basically do more dmg than a plasma even with the same talents - and way more than a plasma without them! Except the shotty uses less ammo, can use +reload talents to tap the specials (which are now equal to a charged plasma at the cost of 1 instead of 9 ammo each), all without any of plasma’s downsides like delayed shots, heating etc. It’s basically better at everything except for crushers (pretty strong there too).
And yet… plasma is STILL too strong! Because it doesn’t really matter if the Agripinaa can reach that level if you dedicate your entire build & every talent for it, when a plasma gets close enough without any effort or sacrifice at all. Just realized this is a rather perfect example of that 80/20 you posted earlier. 
Anyway sorry for yet another overlong post. x.x
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Krak is also much less usefull then frag, and yet, it is quite popular. Smoke ain’t bad, it’s just harder to use and to notice positive effect.
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Unfortunately common on this forum, for some reason a good amount of people seem to think ‘I can’t read’ is a valid argument, and then go about attacking people randomly for no real reason. A classic ‘stop it you’re scaring them!’ moment whenever you decide to employ facts and logic instead of blind agreement to their baseless takes.
But, do see you’ve been getting a proper discussion going in here too with others, so that’s nice to see! Unfortunate this one has decided their ignorance is somehow a strength, but glad others have employed their words!
ye its parallel to debating over damage vs stagger or damage vs power
clear winners with or without the skill
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I’m SO sorry that I would rather use Frag Grenades because they’re just a straight-up better tool at the moment. Saying that Smokes are “okay” because of extremely niche circumstances where they’re slightly better (those circumstances are all fixed even easier if you don’t have a skill issue) doesn’t make them a good tool. I’m unmoving on this argument. By the way, at least ping me instead of hoping of sneaking by next time 
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You’re seriously comparing me to the likes of a religious zealot. Why? Is that because I’m strongly of the opinion that Smokes are currently a worse tool than Frags and thus need some love? Yikes, bud. You’re too far gone, I’m so sorry that I have my integrity intact. I’ve explained my reasoning for those beliefs MULTIPLE times and repeating myself any further would just sound like a broken record.
No, you’re just a coward.
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Oh wow. You came up with another frag granade.
Be more creative if you want to replace the only thing that requiers at least fraction of tactical thought.
I mean, if we’re being real here; If you’re not using kraks, you’re just trying to make the game harder for yourself. They’re the clear winner. Frags are a swiss army knife that’s useful basically everywhere, but they still don’t compare to kraks because kraks are the one that kills the things that actually cause problems.
Shooters don’t cause problems.
Trash doesn’t cause problems.
Big f-off balls of crushers out of nowhere cause problems.
I can get behind the “this is the way I want to play/I want to make it harder” argument, but trying to argue that smokes are better than the others is silly. They’re just not.
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I personally like to main Frags because of my main build using a Plasma Gun! Kraks are a VERY good addition to any builds where you need that extra Carapace damage. Unlike Smokes, I am actually WILLING to switch to Kraks and change up my overall build to accommodate my teammates’ strengths and weaknesses, however.
I really like this idea! The smoke bombs look great and sound cool, but are ultimately super situational… Some krak claymores or melta bombs would be totally sweet!
Smokes are really ruined by that the fact that they are extremely limited in their scope of use. Like if you got a shooter problem then half the time you probably are in the range to just use basic frags to defuse the situation anyways.
I’d much rather take options that actually realistically and reliably defuse situations. Like my teammate is more than likely not going to enjoy that smoke cover i provide him when he’s surrounded by million elites and specials, instead i think he much more prefers for me to grenade/krak it instead.
I’d personally prefer smokes to give some slight staggering/slowing effect when its deployed, nothing as extreme as flashbang but something that gives it some extra value and benefit to use over the other options.
this is where the real issue with smoke is. smoke is very good when you have coordination and can use it to prevent these kinds of problems, but every single pubber and most premades are about moving fast and not looking ahead much. smoke is of little use as a “save me” tool, and pretty much every uses grenades to save themselves or teammates last-second.
none of this is a problem with smoke, it’s just a tool that goes unused because you are always going to be stuck with some guy that launches themselves into the line of fire and thus past where the smoke grenade would be useful.
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