The descriptions on the new stagger system are super unclear and come off as very convoluted. The new related stagger talents are the same on every class and I don’t see how these talents add anything interesting to character building. Gameplay seems somewhat less engaging since the focus shifted from cleaving down hordes to stagger-locking enemies until they eventually die.
7 Likes
PUSH ENEMY. PUSHED ENEMY TAKES MORE DAMAGE.
How is that unclear or complex or very convoluted ?
2 Likes
ANY YOU GOT HIT WHILE PUSHING, GREAT DESIGN!!! ALSO TY STUPID SHARK FOR “FIXING” HYPERDENSITY.
4 Likes
That’s another matter not related to stagger. And that’s probably why people feels the new difficulty (that and temporary hp being absolutely terrible).
5 Likes
It seems repetative at first, but you get used to it fairly quickly, dodging was/is super repetative as well.
Also, some classes will build their loadouts around stagger (FK and IB are really strong classes now) to take care of most of the work for the team.
Maybe wait for a few days/weeks to see how the playerbase adapts, not judge on the literal first day.
5 Likes
Dude, the problem is- hyperdensity exists from the game release till today, it’s almost 1.5 years and FS don’t give a fuсk about it. It was not critical after BBB, but now it is. You have almost broken THP talents, more tough enemies, that are less susceptible to stagger, overnerfed dodge (it seems so-so when hosting or having near 0 ping, but in most cases you don’t have ping low enough), and combining all of this factors game tempo is just very different from before. It’s more like VT1 tempo, where fighting was a lot slower, you had to be more careful and couldn’t effectively hit-trade. But there are two “little” differences between VT1 and VT2- in VT1 there where NO HYPERDENSITY AT ALL, there where no such thing as “waiting pool behind someone’s back or near your teammate”, and the other difference was in the number of enemies, yeah it was a lot less rats in VT1.
4 Likes
I didn’t have hyperdensity yesterday, but it cause some others issues as well as stated in another post.
But still, it’s totally offtopic and not related to stagger.
2 Likes
Read any of the new perks. They don’t even say which parts of the effects apply to melee and ranged weapons. Does Kerillian’s 3rd class’ “Assassin” talent (tier 3) grant bonus headshot and critical damage to both melee and ranged attacks? Is is always on? Does it only apply to staggered enemies. To even explain how this works fully they need another paragraph, which makes it a convoluted system.
3 Likes
Poor wording doesn’t make the system faulty. I mean, read the rulebooks of numerous board games. Even some great games have a freakin’ bad rulebook.
4 Likes
I did specify the descriptions make it come off as convoluted. If you need that much space to describe your system then it’s convoluted. This isn’t a board game lol. You don’t need an instruction manual. Some great games taught you what the game is by playing. But there is no transparency to the new stagger system and it’s very arbitrary within the gameplay. Instead of killing things theres the new extra step of stun-locking them and wailing on them for longer?
It seems like stagger stacks also are removed after a certain point and cant be reapplied for a while which isnt listed anywhere. Enemies will stun from the first couple hits with the flamethrower for example then just run at you and never stagger again.
2 Likes
There’s just so much different with this new system that even if it is somehow good, it would be impossible to know what it’s actually doing because the descriptions are so unclear. There literally is no rulebook for this. Imagine playing monopoly but it doesnt say how long you’re in jail or when to tax. That’s kinda what they are doing here. That’s your board game equivalent.
3 Likes
I completely agree. The basic PREMISE behind the stagger system is fine, staggered enemies are more vulnerable and take more damage, it makes sense right? What doesn’t make sense is all of the language and convoluted rules behind the stagger system. Here is the description from ONE talent:
Mainstay: deal 20% more damage to staggered enemies. Each hit against a staggered enemy adds another layer of stagger. Bonus damage is increased to 60% against enemies affected by more than one stagger.
What the hell does this mean? Yes I know you can read the patch notes in detail and understand how the stagger system works, but this language is FAR too complicated. What’s the difference between “a staggered enemy”, "an enemy with one count of stagger, and “an enemy affected by more than one stagger effect?”.
It’s a mess.
6 Likes
You are truely Fatshark’s player.
“I dont know how it works but it must be good.”
3 Likes
Agreed. The whole system is convoluted with stages and all that. This could be fixed so incredibly easily, too. Just give a new innate quality to weapons like Shields and 2H hammers - you know, control weapons - where hitting an enemy makes them take more damage for a time. Make it so that there can be various options for showing this (available in the options menu):
-No visual, if you want uncluttered vision
-Some kind of aura effect (like the banner boost, but a different color so you know it’s a debuff for them)
-Some kind of icon over enemy heads
One stage of bonus, dealt by specific weapons, none of this convoluted garbage with a whole tier of annoying new “talents” to pick from.
Then, people can know exactly what they’re in for. Because when you have to juggle seven enemy varieties in front of you, watch for specials, keep tabs on allies, your ammo, your health, your ult meter - knowing just how many hits it will take to kill this one enemy in front of you is a very good thing.
This also means that players who want to use light weapons are not completely screwed over. The stagger damage bonus, instead of being something that everything HAS to be balanced around, becomes something you can USE for balancing in general. “This weapon doesn’t do that much damage, but it can make everything you hit take more damage” vs “this weapon has an innate debuff where it does less damage because it doesn’t hit hard enough to stagger the target consistently”.
Another option could be - if an enemy is on the ground, then they take a lot more damage. This makes sense; it’s like DnD’s coup de grace rule.
3 Likes
It’s just that it doesn’t hurt the game at the moment. You don’t have to use it at all. Did another topic on that matter.
The part of the patch notes that details how the new stagger system works uses the word stagger THIRTY ONE different times, and in multiple different contexts.
Pre WoM stagger had exactly one definition:
- Stagger: The act of staggering an enemy with an attack that interrupts their animation and can stun or knock them over.
In the WoM patch notes alone (not even getting into the talent descriptions!) we have:
- Stagger: The act of staggering an enemy with an attack that interrupts their animation and can stun or knock them over.
- Staggered: An enemy that has been staggered.
- Stagger damage bonus: The damage bonus you get from hitting a staggered enemy
- Stacking staggers: Multiple staggers applied to the same enemy
- No stagger: An unstaggered enemy
- 1 Application of stagger: An enemy who has been staggered once
- 2 Stagger appplications: An enemy who has been staggered twice, but in quick succession
- Staggers stacked: The number of staggers stacked on an enemy.
- Unstaggered: Enemies who are resistant to damage because they haven’t been staggered.
- Staggered ones: Enemies who take more damage because they have been staggered.
- Unstaggered: Enemies with no stacks of stagger who are resistant to stagger because they haven’t been staggered yet.
- Stagger Threshold: The rising threshold of resistance enemies get from being repeatedly staggered:
- Stagger Count: The number of times an enemy has been staggered in a row (caps at 2)
- Stagger count to 2: The max level of stagge which is applied by pushes and some heavy attacks, instead of a single level of stagger.
- Stagger: Any reaction that interrupts an attack
- Stagger reduction: The resistance elites and marauders have to being staggered.
- Animation categories of stagger: The three different levels of animation performed by a staggered target.
- Staggers in general: The tendency for stagger animations to default to medium, instead of low or high, which reduces the movement of staggered enemies
- Stagger damage dynamic: The new stagger mechanic as a whole.
- Count everything as stagger count 1: Talents that make enemies take damage as if they have been staggered once, even if you haven’t staggered them yet.
- Count headshots and crits as full stagger: Talents that make headshots and crits deal the full stagger damage bonus even on targets that are not staggered.
-Ranged attacks use the stagger damage: Ranged attacks always damage enemies as if they have one count of stagger. (but do they stack with talents or override them?)
Are you confused yet?
5 Likes
The fact that you can go around it kind of speaks to how it doesn’t really add anything to the game. It’s just the same old stuff, but with some extra steps in the middle, and not even fun ones at that. If you choose to engage with it, it’s confusing, if you try to go around it, you’re mildly at a disadvantage (since the “get around” mechanic doesn’t negate the health increase or give as much bonus). This is not a compelling mechanic; it does not add to teamplay, or really involve a lot of thought or anything of the sort. It also sets back balance, which would actually be in the best shape ever with just the mobility buffs to shields! Now, most light weapons are severely disadvantaged in comparison, and shields still aren’t as good as things like XSword and Glaive.
1 Like
If you negate it you lose exactly 3%. And even then you’ll still have the stagger bonus so you’ll probably negate it anyway.
For the rest of the definition, apart from the bonus damage, the stagger states and count were already there since launch. NOTHING has changed besides a new row of talents using it.
What it does is opening new ways to play around it therefore gives you options.
It is not WHY the game feels more spongy, or hard. Removing it will achieve nothing.
Yeah, you only needed a new talent row to force it to work with weapons that cannot benefit from this mechanic directly - including ranged weapons.
That new row needed a level cap raise to accommodate them, which you now have to regrind (with full book you need about 15 runs for each character).
And on top of the new talent you only had to rework basically the entire Weapon tweak/fix section of the patch notes.
So yeah, literally NOTHING changed.
2 Likes
Weapons would have been remade with or without this stagger bonus damage. Cleave nerf have no correlation whatsoever with stagger.
New row being 35 instead of 30 for some reason have also no correlation with stagger mechanic.
1 Like