I don’t know why you’d say he can’t do something when you know he can? Yeah velsix is a very good saltz player, but the pressure in that content is also way higher than anything on live realm. The fact that he can just ult into it and face tank hits while dealing very good damage is way stronger than HM being able to block a lot.
This is not at all true, every career can handle a monster. You don’t need to hard tank them, most monsters can be more or less locked in place with good dodge timing, and they’re all pretty easy to kite/solo if your team is able to make a bit of space.
Killing enemies is good, because when enemies are dead they cannot hit you. Damage in official is the best form of cc. This is true in most modded content too, though stagger ults like whc, bw and merc become much more valuable there with the higher stagger resist from dw and higher density making it harder to push through bad situations.
Knocking monks and SV around is neat, but killing them is much better.
At some point i can agree with the current qp meta evrithing that is not “army of one” type of build kinda suck because evrybody going around doing theyr own thing. That’s why i had pretty much abandoned this game until recently that some of my friends got me back to it as it has lost the team cooperation part. Now i esclusively play in 4 man team. Then again is not hard to find in a QP some guy who delites infantry.
I completely agree with your sentiment. Nonetheless when discussing how competitive classes are with one another, self reliance and versatility is necessarily gonna be a part of that discussion.
As I said I really like that 2h Hammer FK build, I just wish its control was a little better than it is. It feels really bad to swing at a plague monk, have your heavy attack strike a horde enemy or two before connecting with the plague monk, lose your stagger bp due to cleave drop-off then eat a flurry attack for it
Because just because one player on 10000 is able to do that doesen’t mean that is a viable option to be considered for the normal playerbase also that level of damage is useless on live realm.
True you can dodge dance them if the theam does enough space for you, and is a big if, and if you have the space to dodge around also abig if.
If can kill them fast enough i agree, if in the time it takes for one to be killed you can stagger 2 then not so much extra value.
Is fairly back in the thread probably by now but i did specify that i was speaking in a team enviroment and also stated that if you going to solo or duo zealot is much more viable than FK.
It does, but Zealot has more power than FK, which boosts Zealot’s cleave, making the difference not huge, especially since it deals with shields far better. 4 dodges, 1.15 dodge range as well. The only thing the 2H Hammer has over it is single target armour dps. The Flail’s raw damage cleave is also much higher (Flail’s heavies has 17.91 damage cleave and 19.40 stagger cleave, 2H Hammer’s heavies has 8.95 damage cleave and 23.88 stagger cleave, both have the Tank modifier). Add in the fact that the Flail’s heavies are also faster.
If we’re thinking from a team perspective, having someone who outright ignore shields while providing cc as a melee frontliner is helpful. The 2H Hammer performs mostly the same role with higher single target dps, at the cost of significantly less horde dps, less safety, less mobility and dealing with shields less well.
That’s a-me. To be fair, this arena has perfect conditions for chaining Feel Nothing.
That’s a-also a-me. Do note that this is with a Foot Knight that makes it a lot safer.
The solution to this is simple, just give Zealot a trait that converts all healing to THP.
That would solve the problem, no Zealot would be upset if an Elf brought Amaranthe aura, and we sadly would not be able to troll a Zealot by healing him with a medkit.
The problem would literally be solved, so please Fatshark, make it happen.
Wouldn’t that mean that literally any regen would essentially perma halt temp health decay? Are we gonna pretend that wouldn’t be hugely buffing an already overtuned class?
You’d think so, but not if you understand the decay values on THP. Permanent health does not decay when you’re gaining THP and it’s used as a buffer to protect your green HP. So it’s better for the regen to remain permanent without any decay, the only problem is most Zealot players want to be running on THP all the time.
By giving the Zealots a trait/talent that converts all sources to healing to THP, then any healing regen would reduce the THP decay, but it won’t prevent it. You lose 1 THP every second so over 10 seconds you lose 10 THP. NB gives a player 2HP over 10 seconds.
So if a Zealot were to run NB his THP decay would go from 10 THP over 10 seconds to 8 THP over 10 seconds. Stacked with Amaranthe it would be a decay of 5 THP instead of 8/10 but that’s only when he is below half hp. If the regen was stacked with Amaranthe, NB and the GK quest then it would be a decay of 3 - THP below half health or 6 THP when he is above half health.
Yes if there’s a match where all the healing regen sources are stacked it’d be strong, stacking things always are. However, no matter what the Zealot does he will always have decaying health, and the only way to sustain it would be in melee.
The other thing to consider is that Zealots mostly bring NB so that when they do need to heal it is converted to THP so they don’t have to injure themselves. Should such a trait/talent exist that will convert all sources of healing to THP then Zealots will have more freedom to pick other traits besides NB.
Is 15%ish more power i’m not gonna do the math but i don’t think give him so much more cleave.
Also still you have control of only the right side of the horde. The flail wins in damage, and is more safe but only for the zealot which, as we established, doesn’t even need it that much, and the damage part can be easly compensated by your team. All this non counting all the extra utilty that FK brings with is kit.
I think you are considering the game for a duo situation.
This is exactly how his passive worked on release and Zealot was terrible because of it.
Until they made THP synergize with his passive, he was seen as a meme character.
Whenever you get thp it pauses decay for a little while. Can’t remember how long the pause is nowadays but yeah because of that it could be a lot stronger than your calculations suggest.
Also most Zealot players I know do not run Nat bond since it makes you passively lose your stacks over time. Barkskin is the best choice assuming you’re running the bonus healing talent, boon of shallya would probably be optimal if you were running the DR or move speed talents instead.
You forget that zealot can double the effectivness of healing. You should make the talent not be affected by holy fortitude and also this
I will never agree that right now zealot is overtuned but this will surley make it be.
You could just make him so external health rigen just doesn’t affect him that would be a band aid solution, his ultimate convert some green hp in temp if he has any ( but also too strong maybe ) i would be agreeing with asking for a rework if not that very easly you can screw the career over, fatshark made questionable choices recently and is not fast in updates to fix things.
My feelings on Zealot is that best case scenario he got reworked entirely. However that’s just not very realistic. If I were to summarise simple changes I think would go a long way it’d go something like this.
Change Fiery Faith power to straight melee power. He doesn’t need easy ranged breakpoints on top of everything else (fun fact, Zealot can easily reach the marauder/gor cleave breakpoint for volley bow with just his passive while it’s borderline impossible for BH to do so…). To be clear though, it should still increase melee cleave and stagger, that’s appropriate and thematic. I only clarify this because I’m fairly sure I’ve seen some melee damage only increases listed as melee power elsewhere in the game.
Give him a way to ignore team health regen (not convert it into temp health, just ignore it outright). How to achieve this is really tricky, and I don’t know how you’d best achieve that.
Those two things would go a long way to ending the continuous Zealot threads and put him close enough to being in line with other careers. He’s just too versatile as well as powerful, taking away his ranged power is simply the most clear no brainer change for him IMO.
That’s true, but that doesn’t mean it can’t be resolved.
All they would need to do is change the way passive healing regen works on him so that instead of it giving him THP which pauses the THP decay timer, it instead reduces how much health is decayed over time.
So unless he can stack healing sources to the point he is gaining more than 10 THP, he won’t be gaining any THP, thus the healing regen effect on Zealot should just be to reduce THP decay over time instead of giving him some THP.
Of course another solution would be to just prevent healing regen to pause the decay timer, that may be the simplest fix.
No math needed with Creature Spawner. The Flail’s heavy attacks staggers 7 Marauders. The 2H Hammer’s heavy attacks also staggers 7 Marauders. They both hit the same number of Maulers. The 2H Hammer also cleaves shields less, hitting 3 shielded Marauders while the Flail hits 6.
Add in that Zealot’s power and it’s pretty much always going to be equal, with the exception of hitting an extra Skavenslave or so.
This is a minor detail. I could easily argue that the ones hit first in a swing are going to recover first, but this really isn’t important for the overall picture, which is the massive dps disparity between the two and comparable crowd control capabilities where it matters.
Zealot not needing the personal safety has no bearing on a Flail Zealot’s usefulness to a team. For reference, this is how atrocious the 2H Hammer’s horde dps actually is. A quick dps test with UI Tweaks gave the following results:
50 for the 2H Hammer.
60 for the 1h Axe. That’s how bad that is.
75 for the Flail (this is also quite low, but Zealot’s buffs make it acceptable).
The test was 20 Marauders. The 2H Hammer had higher horde dps with its light attacks than its heavies, coming in at 60-ish, but still lower than the Flail. Both builds had Mainstay, 5% Attack Speed and Crit Chance on weapon, 5% Attack Speed and 10% Chaos on Charm, Zealot had no stacks of Fiery Faith and ults were not used. No headshots to make the results consistent, neither have noteworthy headshot damage anyway.
As can the crowd control.
If I was, I would be saying Foot Knight is better. Foot Knight is more useful for duos than Zealot. FK with Comrades in Arms + any dps career is very powerful in a duo.
Admittedly eating that much damage isn’t as useful in live, but it demonstrates how insanely good zealot is under loads of pressure I hope. No other career can just shrug off damage the way he can, and the lower damage you’re generally taking in live content means that you can rely much more on his high attack speed and insane thp generation to tank stuff without much risk.
He’s just not at all an underwhelming career, he’s not the strongest in the game or anything, but he’s solidly A tier, if BW, WHC and Shade are all at varying levels within S.
Intersting results feels like flail should get some nefs then.
Flail gets advantage on the shields but you can deal with them with the charge or ranged 2hh has edge aginst super armor and i rarely see packs of shields.
Nevertheless even even with the same control of the weapon i would still prefer to have the FK utility than the Zealot DPS.
The fact that you use a character that main selling point should be his high dps and you lower it for some control that can be achived with another career that also brings a ton of utility just to have some increase in horde dps feels like a big waste of potential to me.
Fair i would still prefer a Fk HM or a IB HM, Whc Merc or wathever combination of them as my frontline if i’m a ranged career.
I think you mean tag team, Fk is also a good duo choice i agree. Just obojectively high dps has more value when the output comes from 2 sources istead of 4, the ability to not go down also increase in value if you have just 4 players insted of 4 so the zealot checks both but fk is also very useful in that
