only that current implementation has it 2 zealots 2 psykers usually with books and bubbles. veteran with VOC as a distant third and ogryn gets the shaft.
had a havoc 35 group yesterday that waited for 15 minutes ruling out even high level vets and zealots… i humored it only because literally nothing auric maelstrom(I II V E G) or other havoc was up for the time be…
until even the third one lost patience “i’m here to play havoc not party finder”
and the group disbanded without getting out of the mourningstar.
so even if ogryn get rejected the most, the hamfisted rejected paired with demotions and peoples urge to play it safe
(i mean who would have thought the A.S.S cheesers picking the “easiest” route for an “accomplishment” as well, i know…mind…blown)
makes it not even a chore but an unapproachable one as well.
The game should be balanced around basic Heresy/Damnation, where most players are at.
Auric and Havoc are non-standard game modes that the overwhelmingly vast majority of the playerbase do not play often, if ever. They rely on whacky modifiers that typical players aren’t exposed to, and with many of the ways things are designed in this game, thing’s don’t scale properly. For example, cooldown reduction nodes and Plasma Guns are neat but not crazy good in typical Heresy or Damnation games, but in something like Auric Maelstrom can be much more powerful when they’re fed larger numbers of enemies, particularly when the enemies arrive in clumps or conga lines that are almost as easily dispatched as single enemies.
Trying to balance the game around these extra-hard difficulty levels is catering to a tiny percentage of the playerbase that’s far more capable than your average player will ever be, and that doesn’t tend to end well for games as a whole. That’s part of what killed off old school Arena shooters and why Doom Eternal (and especially its expansions) are typically reviewed lower than Doom 2016. People with sub-25 year old twitch reflexes and the time to devote quad digits worth of hours to the game are going to perform at an entirely different level that your average player just isn’t going to find fun.
Aye yeah, wasn’t an issue at higher level difficulties, but definitely an issue when seeing single-digit level pyskers LMBing their way through games and leaving their teammates in the dust.
I think Ogryn is very useful on Havocs, but you just aren’t going to convince someone who’s sitting at the partyfinder to pick an Ogryn when he could pick another chorus, VoC or bubble, all of which benefit him directly and visibly. It’s just the selfish nature of having the choice. Would I rather get a fourth guy in there who scales off the same things I do, or would I rather get a fourth guy in there who gives me a third layer of scaling?
I think even if you made Ogryn oneshot everything in the game he might not get picked much for that reason in particular. Partyfinder mechanics really make this whole meta or not meta issue a lot worse than it has to be.
VoC is excellent for havocs. Chorus is the havoc “training wheels” meta imo – good CC/gold toughness boost but you give up SO MUCH damage to get it – I know when I run chorus I’m pure support and hit like a wet noodle. I think ultimately as teams get better situated wrt havocs people are going to realize that you don’t need MASSIVE amounts of gold toughness to get by and the meta will shift away from chorus.
That’s assuming havoc as a mode lives beyond the next couple weeks lol
Maybe I can express my explanation in a bit more detail. I think that Ogryn is not part of the absolute ideal meta team. Its the first thing I try to say in the video, and I had incentive to go the other way because a video going “erm akshually ogryn is meta guys” would have been a banger. But I think he’s good enough that I’d choose him over a chorus zealot. The current public meta is something like:
But Chorus really does cost Zealot, even with flamer (which most chorus zealots are taking) a ton of total game effectiveness. So slotting a competent Ogryn into that is reasonable for most parties and in my opinion is actually preferable. But in fact I think the secret meta is this:
and I think taking a shield Ogryn instead of one of the FotF zealots is a downgrade but an acceptable one that will still net a large number of wins. If we get a bit more nuanced I think Relic is better than DS4 if you only have one zealot because you gain much improved stagger and cleave into mass which helps hold back the tide so the inferno/shredders can work. Frontlining is important when the mass ball comes to visit.
I think we’re going through a skill gap phase in general, kinda like when Auric was released, where there was a lot of terror around shooters and gunners. But (not even accounting for the nerfs) most players learned to play around them and now its a breeze. When I’m playing with very good players I don’t think the cost of Chorus is worth it when VoC and Shield bubble are already in the comp. I say this because I’ve done it a whole bunch with all kinds of comps. Most of my games like this are pretty smooth and don’t take any more time than a chorus heavy team comp, though running intentionally off meta like I did in my recent video did not go very smoothly. But I said up front and the events of that video were interesting. I do understand why players who are less comfortable in Havoc 40 feel Chorus is better and I don’t think its bad for them to take it. But I think that for a skilled player with a lot of hours its actually a handicap. So yea - I’d pick the Ogryn.
Thanks for clarifying! A sufficiently coordinated/skilled group can probably clear 40’s faster with this, but I think for most players 2 FotF will end in tears. (Source: my own tears.) Speaking as a B-tier (at best…) player, I’ve had good results with FotF/shieldgryn + chorus + bubble + shout. Double chorus or bubble is fine too but games take forever. I haven’t tried FotF + shieldgryn + bubble + shout but I think pugs will probably struggle with this.
Just curious, do you play with pugs much? I think what works well for a coordinated four stack might be pretty different than what works with a typical pug.
I play with both. I’ve won a lot of pugs with ogryn and fotf zealot. But most pugs have lots of bubble or overtoughness pumps. My private games we tend to run a lot less over toughness. Especially when I’m playing with the most skilled of my pals, or jsat and crew. There’s not really a frame of reference for this in DT but in most hero shooter style games what is “meta” at the masters league is not what is meta for the gold leagues etc. Your sorta…platinumish player can beat a havoc 40 by spamming chorus or whatever. But I don’t at all think this is the ideal way to play and beat havocs. Its definitely not the most fun, and it abuses mechanics that probably need looking at, but most of all I think its slower and less effective with a lower win rate.
sadly current training wheel mentality online doesnt allow for “downgrades” only what guarantees, at the soul of your first born-pinky promise, to not get “demoted”
and as long as the herd is afraid they rather opt for the tightest formation.
Downranking is one of the worst mechanics in Havoc. It makes you feel very precious about your runs. It makes increasing the difficulty of havocs more punishing. I want to bang my head against the hard mode until I win, not get demoted to sub-hard mode every 3 runs. It makes experimenting more risky.
Lets just make an argument for a second - We know havoc is supposed to have a low win rate because its clearly designed around premades and the only reward for beating havoc 40 is bragging rights. Lets just pretend for a second that the win rate across the community is in the range of 30%. What if fatshark wants to make that 20% or 15%…what if they decide that the ideal average win rate for havoc 40 is like 2%? Its end game after all, being unable to beat it is kinda the point. I’d be happy with that personally. I want havoc to be harder. But now everyone is going to be even cagier with their comps. It just feels really bad. Plus making a mode with a 2-3% win rate or whatever is fine if I can just keep trying until I get it (see people playing Solos) but its not very fun if I keep getting demoted and have to regrind all the time.
Due to the artificial difficulty of Havoc, only the creme de la creme of weapons will end up being used.
Knowing Fatshark, they’ll pound those into the ground and do nothing to the weapons that deserve buffs. Fatshark has an odd mentally of nuking good things into the ground, instead of making bad things better.
like playing paintball with live ammunition.
the “game” itself is fun and you’d pull some very “skilled” stuff even at risk of a broken finger or cracked rib.
but enemy starts using .556 you’ll be camping 100% of the time and see who’s peeping first
Not even that. I can understand and support smacking something that is just plain out of whack with a nerf bat. When its actually the item/ talent/ whatever instead of bugs (cough power-sword & flamer cough) and its clearly doing far better than multiple more specialized items at that thing. Basic game balance - if most things are working as intended then you bring the outliers down.
What we have feels like “nerf due to whichever ones we don’t like” or worse nerf because they’re too lazy to fix underlying issues. Then of course the things stay nerfed for months or longer due to ObeseTuna not wanting to admit to an oopsie.
I don’t agree, at least not for the reason you state but for the problems @Reginald outlines for why deranking is bad.
Being able to use less optimal equipment is a “luxary” you can afford with enough skill to compensate for that choice.
The main reason why I use meta and not something “good enough but not the Nr.1 choice” is exactly because I have a limited amount of tries before I can fail. If I couldn’t derank from making a more fun, less meta, choice, I’d drop meta in a heartbeat.
paired with demotions and peoples urge to play it safe
“erm akshually ogryn is meta guys” would have been a banger. But I think he’s good enough that I’d choose him over a chorus zealot. The current public meta is something like:
