Rework survivalist by making aura buffs for everyone

[Flawless]

@NemesisNidhoggr

Revolvers spends 1 bullet to kill elite/specialist and replenishes 1 bullet.

Not true.
With the talent that increases your max ammo, you get about 0.6 bullets per kill. So you get 1 bullet every 2 kills, twice (2nd and 4th kill). Then you get 1 bullet per kill, once (5th kill).

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@NemesisNidhoggr

Plus it creates a situation, where you more inclined to use your weapon only against specialists and elites. Which is more beneficial to weapon, capable of single-target killing, rather than spraying the horde.

Which makes a class, that uses guns, NOT use guns to kill horde.

Good.
Learn to play and learn to aim.
Spamming guns at hordes (and wasting ressources this way) is for bad players.

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@NemesisNidhoggr

If i pick survivalist and use autogun to only kill specialist enemies and horde with my ranged weapon - i am a veteran. But i left with no ammo. Therefore i have to fight for ammo packs with my teammates.

Don’t shoot hordes with your gun.

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@NemesisNidhoggr

Imagine creating a fun modificator. For one class to come in and completely remove it.

It doesn’t.

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@NemesisNidhoggr

All these problems boils down to how Fatshark treats difficulty. Instead of making individual enemies harder - they make more of them.

Bullet sponges are not fun to play against.
Also, all games in the series are called “tide”. Would be a bit weird, if there wasn’t a tide of enemies, no?

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@NemesisNidhoggr

it is OP on modificators like waves of hounds. Where literally 40 of them spawns. They easy to kill. Usually some psyker or zealot always rush to farm those juicy specialists kills for their scoreboard numbers.

Yes. This is the “unlimited ammo” modifier, when played with vet.
If this was an issue, FS could simply remove the modifier dogs from the pool of enemies that count towards Survivalist.

How delusional do you have to be, to think that someone would only try to quickly kill those weak dogs, because they want to pad their stats on the scoreboard?
Also, lol.
The scoreboard does not even count those dogs as specialist or disabler.

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@NemesisNidhoggr

It is unfair for certain weapons, that benefit from it more (look first quote).

There is a huge amount of things, where you benefit from having a higher attack speed.
Some other things are more useful if you have high single attack damage.
That is not unfair. it simply means that you have to consider multiple things when making your weapon/blessing/talent choices.

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@NemesisNidhoggr

It is working where it is not intended to.
[…]
So not only survivalist veterans and psykers are working where they not intended to. But they also harm experience of other classes.

Who (aside from you) says that it is not intended?

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@NemesisNidhoggr

But now majority of enemy melee’s attention is only on zealot and ogryn. Because veteran and psyker are far in the back, taking much less aggro. Making zealot and ogryn to deal with far more enemies, that they are intended to.

I am pretty sure that this is exactly what was intended.
Why would the intention be, to have the enemies run past the tanky melee guys, to run after the squishy ranged guys?

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@NemesisNidhoggr

psykers are unfair in “no ammo pickups”

… bruh moment

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@NemesisNidhoggr

replenishing 1 ammo every other kill results in effective 50% ammo increase

It is much more than 50%, because the ~50% ammo that you got back from spending the “original ammo”, gets ~50% back as well (and so do those ~50%).

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@NemesisNidhoggr

If survivalist worked “Any specialist/elite kill made by VETERAN replenishes 1% ammo” that would be a completely different story.
Which still unfair to automatic weapons.

Lol no.
You do not want to have any tradeoffs to using guns that need no aim and can be used against absolutely everything. Just say what you actually mean by “unfair”.

[NemesisNidhoggr]

@Tempest_yo

In the example listed from the time he threw the grenade which lowered everything’s HP dramatically

what’s your problem? Are you arguing for the sake of arguing?
Yes, he threw the grenade. And his teammates also were doing damage. That’s how game works. And because ogryn was the one, killing majority of these enemies - EVERYONE ELSE REPLENISHED AMMO.
Which makes ammo effeciency of this aura even more, than it already is.

In combat scenario your dont sit there using ONLY gun. You use all weapons available. Why you picking up on a fact he threw a grenade? Even if he didnt used a grenade, even if he just sat in the corner, watching his team kill 20 elites. He would still replenish obscene amount of ammo for doing NOTHING.

@Tempest_yo

he shot 11 nades, and ended with 20 from 29.

he shot 12. watch carefully. Because gunlugger ability instantly reloads your gun, so you shoot and use ability to instantly shoot again.

@Tempest_yo

You can see exactly at one point where he gets 2 back from a multi kill.

which is exactly the problem i describing. That some weapons are not made with survivalist in mind. Like rumbler, capable of multikilling. Or plasmagun, capable of killing several targets with one hit, replenishing 7-15 ammo per shot that used 3 ammo.

@Tempest_yo

He also likely got a Burst limiter proc for a free shot refund.

no he didnt.

@Tempest_yo

This is a very cherry picked scenario.

this is a regular scenario you find yourself on auric Hi STG missions. Are you really playing this game?

@Tempest_yo

When you get bad enough special waves people can’t always stay grouped up

that’s your problem for not grouping up with team. This video showcases not a specialists wave, but just elites that present on map. Such packs of elites are in each “room” of the map.

@Tempest_yo

It is a 1% return with limited up time. When it’s there it’s super great for the classes that can really abuse it, but this is a feature not a bug.

let’s get mathematical.

Imagine your entire team runs revolver. 1 veteran, 1 zealot, 2 psykers. Bunch of cowboys.
With how this weapon designed - it supposed to be low ammunition hand cannon. Use it only when you need to kill high priority target. All these 4 are insane, pro-level, players. That never miss. And their builds allow to 1shot any target with their revolver.

In scenario where no survivalist aura present - these 4 will experience the ammo shortage from shooting enemies with revolver. Because amount of ammo present on the map is less, that the amount of enemies you need to kill.

Now let’s imagine we have a survivalist aura. It’s 1% ammo replenishement. Only replenish ammo every other shot you say.
4 players. each of them kills an elite/specialist enemy. 4 enemies killed. EACH of them replenishes 2 ammo. While spending 1.
All of the sudden, the personal “50% ammo effeciency” results in 200% overall team ammo effeciency.
Which means none of those players will experience the shortage in ammo. And no reason for ammo packs on the map.

The effectiveness of survivalist aura is out of the question. It is, undeniably, OP. Once again, i repeat my statement of specialists wave none of you want to acknowledge - a wave of hounds modificator will result in ~30 specialists spawned. Which are easy to kill. And replenish total of 30% of ammunition. For entire team. 120% ammunition replenishment. From a single spawn of dog waves. And you encounter such waves multiple times throughout the mission.

STOP DEFENDING OBJECTIVELY AND MATHEMATICALLY BROKEN AURA

[NemesisNidhoggr]

@Flawless

Not true.
With the talent that increases your max ammo, you get about 0.6 bullets per kill. So you get 1 bullet every 2 kills, twice (2nd and 4th kill). Then you get 1 bullet per kill, once (5th kill).

not true. You replenish 1% of ammo each time elite/specialists dies in your coherency. You dont even need to spend bullet

@Flawless

Good.
Learn to play and learn to aim.
Spamming guns at hordes (and wasting ressources this way) is for bad players.

dont tell me how to play this game. If i want to kill horde with my gun - i will kill horde with my gun. People ignoring horde is the reason you get overwhelmed in auric damnations and maelstorms, die and lose the match.

@Flawless

Don’t shoot hordes with your gun.

dont make the guns, that are DESIGNED TO SHOOT HORDES.
all braced guns are specifically made to kill hordes. Their blessing benefit from killing multiple enemies at close range. I.e HORDE ENEMIES.

If i have gun that deals with horde. And build for clearing the hordes. I will shoot hordes and i will be better than you in any combat scenario

@Flawless

It doesn’t.

then you havent played “Mostly melee no ammo pickups”.
Because all veterans go into that maelstorm with plasma. Because they know that they wont run out of ammo with insane amounts of elites present on the map. Which completely nivilates the “no ammo” modificator.

@Flawless

Bullet sponges are not fun to play against.

where did i said “make enemies with more hp”? Huh? I said make enemies HARDER. Not TOUGHER.
Learn to read before responding to comments.

@Flawless

Also, all games in the series are called “tide”. Would be a bit weird, if there wasn’t a tide of enemies, no?

there are tides of enemies. Called horde. Consists of poxwalkers, groaners, scab melee and dreg melee. Make the hordes more threatening, instead of making elites and specialists into horde. I dont remember VT2 throwing 20 chaos warriors at you every other room. Altho, granted, havent played VT2 much, maybe it does it.

@Flawless

If this was an issue, FS could simply remove the modifier dogs from the pool of enemies that count towards Survivalist.

they spend 10 months adding “ranged enemy” to scab shooter. You understand? from the launch of the game, scab shooter wasnt highlighted by veteran’s Executioner Stance. Because in game code this particular enemy wasnt in the group of “ranged shooter”.
Only in patch 14 they finally did it.

The hounds is an overexaggureated example. There are still obscene amounts of specialists and elites on the map. Giving you much more ammunition, that you supposed to have with this aura.

@Flawless

There is a huge amount of things, where you benefit from having a higher attack speed.
Some other things are more useful if you have high single attack damage.
That is not unfair. it simply means that you have to consider multiple things when making your weapon/blessing/talent choices.

Like dumdum blessing that isnt available on hard-hitting single target weapons? xD

That is unfair. Take a revolver. Weapon with no spread. With aiming capabilities. You shoot - you kill. Even in the heat of combat.
Take a braced autogun. Weapons with HUGE spread. Without aiming capabilities. You shoot - you pray you hit at least 70% of bullets. Unless you literally french kissing the rager you trying to kill.

So taking spread into consideration. And that your bullets may not even hit the target. On average automatic weapons need MORE ammunition to kill, than single target oneshotting revolvers/plasmaguns.
Which means their ammo effeciency drops drastically.

@Flawless

Who (aside from you) says that it is not intended?

go into such maelstorm. 8/10 times you will get psykers and veterans on your team. Doesnt say anything to you? the reason why mostly those classes go into that maelstorm? maybe because those classes NOT AFFECTED by negative “no ammo pickups” modificator and still capable of using their ranged weapons regardless?

@Flawless

Why would the intention be, to have the enemies run past the tanky melee guys, to run after the squishy ranged guys?

you dont read. dont you?
100% of enemies. 4 players.
50% of enemies are melee, engage 2 players.
50% of enemies are ranged, engage other 2 players.

Mostly melee modificator:
100% of enemies. 4 players
90% of enemies are melee, engage 2 players.
10% of enemies are ranged, engage other 2 players.

Yes, working as intended.

@Flawless

It is much more than 50%, because the ~50% ammo that you got back from spending the “original ammo”, gets ~50% back as well (and so do those ~50%).

good. at least you agree that this aura is OP AF

@Flawless

You do not want to have any tradeoffs to using guns that need no aim and can be used against absolutely everything. Just say what you actually mean by “unfair”.

the tradeoffs of these guns are: high ammo consumption, massive spread and low base damage against anything barely armored.
Automatic weapons, are, objectively, garbage in this game. High crit-onslaught veteran can make autoguns compete with other more viable weapons.
And ah, yes, the stupid OP columnus that is way too strong and still not been nerfed.

If you see someone running with automatic weapon - it’s columnus mk V.

Shotguns also bad. But it’s a different topic

[Flawless]

@NemesisNidhoggr

@Flawless

Not true.
With the talent that increases your max ammo, you get about 0.6 bullets per kill. So you get 1 bullet every 2 kills, twice (2nd and 4th kill). Then you get 1 bullet per kill, once (5th kill).

not true. You replenish 1% of ammo each time elite/specialists dies in your coherency. You dont even need to spend bullet

I didn’t say “per your own kill” or that you have to spend a bullet for that kill.
You responded, trying to correct a mistake that i didnt make, because you are petty.

Now please correct me for not specifying that this is only the case if the player we are talking about, is under the effect of the survivalist aura and does not currently have full reserves.
Anything else, that is completely obvious to anyone, but that i did not specifically say?

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@NemesisNidhoggr

If i want to kill horde with my gun - i will kill horde with my gun. People ignoring horde is the reason you get overwhelmed in auric damnations and maelstorms, die and lose the match.

Well, feel free to shoot hordes, but then do not complain about how “unfair” the ammo economy is, when you run out of bullets.

I did not suggest to ignore the hordes. I suggested to not waste ammo on them, indicating that you should probably melee them most of the time (unless you are a psyker with staff).

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@NemesisNidhoggr

i will be better than you in any combat scenario

I doubt that.
Also, not relevant to the topic.

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@NemesisNidhoggr

@Flawless

It doesn’t.

then you havent played “Mostly melee no ammo pickups”.
Because all veterans go into that maelstorm with plasma. Because they know that they wont run out of ammo with insane amounts of elites present on the map. Which completely nivilates the “no ammo” modificator.

Your claim was, that a survivalist vet being part of the group, effectively removes the modifier.
How does the vet using a relatively ammo efficient gun, give infinite ammo to everyone on the team?

If the vet has to bring the plasmagun in order to be ammo efficient, that would mean that other guns (on other classes) can not be sustained as easily, does it not?

Now again, how would a version of survivalist, that only affects the vet, trivialize the entire modifier, if it would have absolutely no impact on zealot and ogryn ammo economy?

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@NemesisNidhoggr

@Flawless

Bullet sponges are not fun to play against.

where did i said “make enemies with more hp”? Huh? I said make enemies HARDER. Not TOUGHER.
Learn to read before responding to comments.

You did not say tougher. I did not claim that you said tougher.

But you did say that you would prefer fewer enemies that are harder to deal with.
How are melee enemies supposed to be harder to deal with, while not in melee range though?
If enemies are fewer, but not tankier, the party will likely be able to just run through the mission, killing the enemies without even stopping.

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@NemesisNidhoggr

I dont remember VT2 throwing 20 chaos warriors at you every other room.

I don’t remember darktide doing that either.
(crushers being the equivalent to cws)

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@NemesisNidhoggr

@Flawless

If this was an issue, FS could simply remove the modifier dogs from the pool of enemies that count towards Survivalist.

they spend 10 months adding “ranged enemy” to scab shooter. You understand? from the launch of the game, scab shooter wasnt highlighted by veteran’s Executioner Stance. Because in game code this particular enemy wasnt in the group of “ranged shooter”.
Only in patch 14 they finally did it.

Ok.
And why do you think they would change the aura in any other way, faster than they would simply remove the modifier dogs from the pool of enemies that grant ammo?

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@NemesisNidhoggr

much more ammunition, that you supposed to have with this aura.

Again, who says that it is more than what it is supposed to do?
Aside from you.

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@NemesisNidhoggr

So taking spread into consideration. And that your bullets may not even hit the target. On average automatic weapons need MORE ammunition to kill, than single target oneshotting revolvers/plasmaguns.
Which means their ammo effeciency drops drastically.

Gratulations, you found out what i just told you.
Full auto guns sometimes come with a trade off.

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@NemesisNidhoggr

@Flawless

Who (aside from you) says that it is not intended?

go into such maelstorm. 8/10 times you will get psykers and veterans on your team. Doesnt say anything to you? the reason why mostly those classes go into that maelstorm? maybe because those classes NOT AFFECTED by negative “no ammo pickups” modificator and still capable of using their ranged weapons regardless?

Melee ogryn are not affected, because they do not go through their ammo reserve anyway.
Melee zealots are not affected, because they do not go through their ammo reserve anyway.
Psykers who do not use any ammo, are also not affected.
Veterans (the ranged class) still can use their guns to some degree, because they restore some ammo.

All classes that usually use ammo, have to be a bit more economical with the ammo they get.

Which part seems unfair or unintended?
It seems to me, that you are simply making things up.

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@NemesisNidhoggr

@Flawless

Why would the intention be, to have the enemies run past the tanky melee guys, to run after the squishy ranged guys?

you dont read. dont you?
100% of enemies. 4 players.
50% of enemies are melee, engage 2 players.
50% of enemies are ranged, engage other 2 players.

Mostly melee modificator:
100% of enemies. 4 players
90% of enemies are melee, engage 2 players.
10% of enemies are ranged, engage other 2 players.

Yes, working as intended.

What the hell are you on about?
The first case that you describe, never happens if the players are positioned in a similar way to the second case described.

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@NemesisNidhoggr

at least you agree that this aura is OP AF

Stop lying.

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@NemesisNidhoggr

Automatic weapons, are, objectively, garbage in this game.
[…]
And ah, yes, the stupid OP columnus that is way too strong and still not been nerfed.

If you see someone running with automatic weapon - it’s columnus mk V.

So they all suck.
Except the one that is OP and should be nerfed (and which is the only one that people use).

Which is weird, because i could have sworn that you proudly posted a scoreboard of yourself having almost exclusively used your autogun, which was not the columnus mk V.
Looking at your ratio of kills and dmg dealt with melee vs ranged, it seems like you were able to spam your gun throughout the entire mission.
Looking at your performance compared to your teammates (with that in mind), i wouldn’t say that the gun is all that bad.

@NemesisNidhoggr

изображение1334×1132 174 KB

Here: i marked it in magenta for you (in case anyone is red/green blind).

[Vodhawak]

@NemesisNidhoggr

Because all veterans go into that maelstorm with plasma. Because they know that they wont run out of ammo with insane amounts of elites present on the map. Which completely nivilates the “no ammo” modificator.

Guess next should be making staffs of Psyker use ammo too so a specific modifier present in less than 1% of the matches available can’t be bypassed. That seems reasonable balancing.

[NemesisNidhoggr]

I am replying to you in the same manner you replying to me. Using similar argument. It’s funny how you call it petty, because it is petty. You are being petty. You are engaging the argument just because you petty. That’s why i replied to you in the same manner. To show that you are, indeed, being petty.

i couldnt be bother any more with someone like you, who incapable of reading and comprehending something as a whole, instead of looking only at isolated “state-by-state” statements. So i wont even quote anything. If you wont understand - not my problem.

I will repeat myself. If there is a gun. That is designed. To shoot horde. I will use that gun. To shoot hordes.
The fact that the gun, that is designed to shoot hordes, suffers from ammo effeciency, compared to a gun, that is designed to kill elites/specialists - is a problem of game balancing. And the reason why certain weapons benefit from survivalist more, than others. Removing survivalist removes the difference in ammo effeciency between braced autogun and plasmagun. Because now both of them on equal ground of being dependend purely on ammo packs.

Yes, i can melee the enemies. But why? I am a veteran, i shoot stuff. You dont say zealot “hey, maybe you should shoot that elite, instead of melee him”.
Plus if i want to play build, where my ranged weapon deals with horde and my melee weapon deals with elites - i will play that build.
Not to mention i will kill horde faster and from further distance with my gun, rather than with my melee.

Because overall game balance favours weapons like revolvers. You will see a zealot running revolver much often, that zealot running autogun. You will see ogryn running kickback/gauntlet more often, that you will see him running automatic shotgun.
As i showed in the video above. Ogryn did the killing. Entire team replenished ammo, including ogryn. Just because veteran happened to be around.

If you dont understand the math that i showcased above. Pointing out how it results in overal +200% ammo effeciency for entire team - that’s not my problem.

You did claimed i said tougher, by making example of bullet sponges. Talking about being petty and trying to weasel out of your mistake.

And another mistake on the go, once again, you misrepresenting my point. Never did i say i want LESS ENEMIES. I said i want specialist and elite to be harder. You can increase the horde enemies, i will be fine with that. But the elites and specials should be a threat, not a nuansence. I want less specialists and elites, than more we already have. Game increases amount of elites and specialists, i dont want that increase in numbers. I want increase in difficulty.
Like i have this problem with crushers. He is supposed to be THE STRONGEST enemy we fight (Outside monstrosities which are boss encounters).
But this massive ogryn, in carapace armor, dies in 1 shovel hit. How is this not stupid?

Once again, i have to repeat myself, because you incapable of reading and holding in your memory any information for more than 1 minute:
DOGS ARE OVEREXAGGURATED EXAMPLE. Removing dogs and mutants from modifiers to not be counted as elites wont solve the problem of survivalist aura being op. because Hi STG still throws at you massive amounts of enemies.

If people wouldnt had problems with survivalist auras - then they wouldnt be complaining about it on forums. The OP is not made by me. I’m just the one of the people, agreeing that survivalist is busted aura and should go through rework. Replenishing ammo on kill is not healthy. As it encourages players to go for guns, that are effective at killing single target enemies to get the most ammo effeciency. Which you yourself agree with by agreeing with my statement about bad ammo effeciency on autoguns.
How can you be so conflicting in your own statements is beyond me.

As i already stated and have to repeat myself: melee ogryns and zealots have to deal with more enemies due to the nature of ai behaviour. Because 2 of their allies are far in the back, using ranged weapons, that they not supposed to use and be in melee, splitting attention of enemies equally. Ogryn and zealots have to deal with far more enemies that they are intended to. But if veteran and psyker were forced into melee range, alongside with zealot and ogryn, then enemy attention would’ve been spread more equally.
and once again you agree with it. But incapable of understanding any further.

Autoguns suck. Aside from OP columnus.
I’m sorry if my scoreboard make confusion. I thought you said you are a good player. So i assumed you will find out, that my score isnt that great. Psyker was, clearly, if you look at stagger numbers, a smite user. No dmg. Just stuns. Dickot is my friend, he was lvl 28 on auric damnation and his plasma was from level 17-18 so he has less dmg because he is not max level, i was helping him level up. So the only competition i had in terms of damage is ogryn

Let me show you how i perform on a class, that dont have to deal with stupid ammo effeciency mechanics of autoguns

Completely different scenario. huh? It’s almost as if autoguns are bad and it’s hard to achieve the same result as something, that is ammo effecient or doesnt use ammo at all…
I wouldve shown scoreboards of plasmagun veteran games. But last time i played this braindead boring build was 2 months ago. I wont be able to find it. But trust me - my autogun games nowhere near close to the score i got on that plasma.

I will repeat. The current iteration of survivalist. In current condition of the game. Is OP. It’s too strong. It gives too much benefits. It’s not the aura’s fault. It’s the fault of how game throws enourmous amounts of elites and specials at you.
I’m fine with different types of rework for this talent, as it is easier, than reworking enemies.

It can be that only veteran kills replenish ammo. It can be that only veteran replenish 1% and his teammates 0.5%. It can be a cooldown on how fast replenishement can occur (once in 2s). It can be removal of survivalist alltogether and going “ammo pack sharing” direction. Veteran can have talents or base line replenish more ammo from ammo packs. Like the small ones replenish 50% instead of 25%. And big packs replenish 100% instead of… 85% cant remember.

I think survivalist is OP and must be nerfed. Any further questions i will disregard. As i stated my point clearly and on multiple occasions. Dont bother arguing it further. Have a nice day, rejects. Go slay some heretics~

[Flawless]

@NemesisNidhoggr

Completely different scenario. huh? It’s almost as if autoguns are bad and it’s hard to achieve the same result as something, that is ammo effecient or doesnt use ammo at all…

I am pretty sure that we have a melee and a ranged weapon, so that we actually use both.
Considering that you basically ONLY used your autogun in the other match, i think that the performance was completely fine.

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@Flawless

@NemesisNidhoggr

Making it built-in veteran feature also not a good idea.

Why is that?
Assuming that you are talking about the idea of survivalist being turned into a built in passive that only applies to the vet and not to teammates.

@NemesisNidhoggr

because having a built-in ammo replenishment is beneficial to one types of weapons, over the others.
[…]
Furthermore it’s OP on higher difficulties, where game spawn WAY too much specialists and elites. Making veterans a better class over others. Especially when only veteran himself replenishes ammo and not his team.

Plus it’s trivializes the “no ammo pickups” maelstorms. As the most classes that go into that type of maelstorms are either survivalist veterans with plasma. Or psykers.

All this makes survivalist either too OP, or unfair, or working where it’s not intended to. Too many problems to balance.

Now you say this:

@NemesisNidhoggr

I’m fine with different types of rework for this talent, as it is easier, than reworking enemies.

It can be that only veteran kills replenish ammo. It can be that only veteran replenish 1% and his teammates 0.5%. It can be a cooldown on how fast replenishement can occur (once in 2s).

But none of these suggestions would change anything about the things that you previously claimed to be problematic.

Confusion of da highest orda!

[Ryshek]

@NemesisNidhoggr

Just as krak grenades should not kill 5-6 crushers in one go, because these fat bois merged into each other.

Hey now, if we get penalized for clustering on enemy grenades they should as well (=

[dragomusic]

@NemesisNidhoggr

(excluding imbalanced columnus)

All you need to say for me to understand you dont understand balance

[Bababoofa]

Yeah I kinda though of them like what would be on par with ammo regeneration and yeah they are pretty strong.

But that just what balancing is for.