The reason I don’t play pubs at all anymore is because I find Auric too easy to be fun, and every single Havoc pub is regurgitating the same 3 builds over and over again. Playing with Purg Psyker is boring. Same with bubble, and taunt, and chorus. It removes so much from the combat loop that it is no longer enjoyable for me.
That leaves me either waiting forever in a party finder trying to find someone without one of those builds (who will probably just switch to Psyker immediately after losing once anyways,) or playing in a premade.
I mean, that’s exactly why I said about not giving average player a chance.
You cannot realistically design content that would be challenging for 4 equally skilled players, without completely destroying quickplay or random lobby experience.
Meta loadouts exist to equalize the community skill. People with less experience can play them and reach Havoc 40. More skilled players can use underused weapons and abilities, be challenged, and still win. Is it about winrates being too high? So it’s not enough to just play at your best, struggle during the mission versus certain enemies, winning too much is a problem?
Precisely my point. Now you understand why people want H40 to be for groups of sweats and don’t care if crutches get removed, and why those same people will often also argue for aurics to go back to being more difficult. That is the exact solution to that problem.
Of course you could also keep auric easy and just further make H40 more of a solo pug experience. What do the 4 man sweat stacks play then? This is why I think your propositions and ideas are a lot more narrowminded and discriminatory than anyone elses. You straight up don’t care if 4 man groups get to have fun anywhere, you despise them because you’re not part of them. It’s a reverse form of elitism.
So what’s wrong with me wanting more people to enjoy Havoc? So you don’t see designing a mode like that in a non-competitive PVE game “elitist” or “gatekeeping” in any way?
Strong players are not at fault for being strong, I don’t say “screw them”.
But in that case, why can’t average playes, with some teamwork, understanding of the game and correct loadouts, reach Havoc 40, even if they do not have diamond-polished fundamentals?
So Havoc is a endgame gamomode only for 1% of the players, and not everyone to strive for?
Why does it matter how many people enjoy Havocs? It’s not the end-all measure of it being a good addition to round out game balance. If the gamemode is, as stated and intended, designed for the top players, then that’s a 0.1% that’s being pleased by it. Is that inherently bad? Why can’t those dedicated players who love tide games get content tailored to them, too? Why does everything have to be aimed at the lowest common denominator?
Because:
It’s either it’s fun for the 4 man sweat stacks or it isn’t. Arguing that just because there’s FEW players who are like that they don’t deserve any content is narrowminded. Pleasing niches is fine.
And again, keep in mind I’m not saying no one else matters. I am a quickplay enjoyer, I argue to make quickplay balanced all the time, but Havoc does not need to be that too.
You can fix the balance. You can’t fix people being boring Andys who need to play plasma gun or purgatus every game to enjoy the game. They will still do the same, come nerfs or not.
A big issue is party finder being required for havoc, with no quickplay. This isn’t (directly) pertaining to the inferno staff discussion but I’ll elaborate anyway.
I often do “havoc quickplay” by just accepting the first 3 people who apply to my h40 party finder listing. I don’t check builds unless I’m avoiding something in particular (e.g. inferno staff). Pretty often, I end up with like 2+ bubble psykers or a quad hivescum team, or an all melee comp. These are all fine – even like 3 psyker comps because it’s different from the usual.
The problem is after the party forms. People feel the need to switch builds etc to fit the “meta” — e.g. psykers will almost always switch TO inferno staff . Which isn’t what I wanted. So my dream of having truly randomized teammates goes down the dumpster, unless I tell them “hey please dont switch your build”. Usually, people either leave or give it 1 try then ragequit after blaming the team comp. “No aoe, no frontliner, no bubble, no gold toughness” etc you name it.
This is why a community defined perception of “meta” sucks the fun out of the game. What happened to trying to overcome challenges? See how far you get? Trying silly comps? A serious lack of this in the havoc community… but it’s largely caused by the havoc system itself (deranking and party finder) and this one’s on Fatshark to fix.
Anyway the point is that “quickplay” is not really possible anymore, for systemic reasons (party finder) and cultural reasons (meta). And Auric is a bit boring for me unless playing with friends.
I understand that. And honestly I’m fine with Plasma at this point. I still prefer it to before they over buffed it, but it’s whatever at this point. The other things I mentioned just have too much game presence at the moment.
Additionally, what I assume AA and Jerro are talking about being lost with Havoc, is that people will only play that stuff. Did people play only meta when Malestrom was the hardest mode? Absolutely. But it was far less prevalent than in Havoc pubs now.
Even amongst Havoc players, most people do not posses the skill of which you speak of.
You’re not cutting the playerbase down to 1% just for some people to have their own playground, you’re cutting even that 1% of Havoc players to 0.1% of high hour premade players.
Is that inherently bad?
I wouldn’t outright say you’re inherently wrong here. But yes, I PERSONALLY think it’s bad.
Why does everything have to be aimed at the lowest common denominator?
Some Havoc 40 players are bad, but most of them are way better than “common denominators”.
as stated and intended
Here’s the problem. It’s not stated as such anywhere. The thing about Havoc being designed solely for crazy high skill players is hearsay that doesn’t exist outside these forums. Most people see official blog posts, Havoc in-game descriptions, and nowhere does it state this. It’s just escalating difficulty that starts low and ends somewhere above auric. That’s it.
Realistically, if it was truly designed for high hour/high skill players only, it would have insane gatekeep mechanics (like, certain amount of auric wins, more than 100) or maybe even “trials” which you would need to complete to access it, aka prove that you won’t be a burden. I’m not saying this gamemode needs it. I’m just saying that it would at least make sense to see something like this, if it was truly designed for “the best of the best”.
They should just lower the stagger values on Purgatus’ LMB and reduce RMB’s range by about a quarter.
Crusher health buff should be reverted, crushers should have flak helmets. Take carapace off ragers.
Dueling Sword should have Devil Claw mobility and Combat Blade should have current Dueling Sword mobility without move tech. Everything about Dueling Sword light attacks should be nuked from orbit when it comes to dealing with any kind of armor.
Balance is fixed other than buffing under performing stuff.
Why is it bad? Do they not deserve to have content custom tailored towards them? Why not?
You literally had @Epic_Cole correct you on this, he had a look into development and stated otherwise. And to be clear, Havoc comes in 40 assignment ranks. I’m saying H40 being for the sweat groups of 4 only makes perfect sense, and he shared his insider knowledge that this was the design intent.
Intent and implementation are not always the same. And again, the game starts you out at H16 or so (heresy level). The ranking system was meant to be this exact filter you describe.
Yup, I’ve never seen anyone ask for a buff while, in the same breath, saying something like, “Also, please add 1 million crushers for each game mode, thanks.” One thing isn’t tied to the other at all, it doesn’t have to be.
You captured my feelings perfectly. I don’t care about “crashing against a wall over and over,” but that sense of teamwork…actually carrying everyone through overwhelming odds…that’s peak Darktide. Normal difficulties don’t really deliver that. Of course, that doesn’t mean my opinion is the only valid one, or that people who dislike Havoc entirely, or enjoy it because they don’t mind losing, are wrong. It’s just different sources of fun, all relative at the end of the day.
What I’m saying, in the actual game nowhere does it say that, and Cole’s words is not official statement. Even official blog introductory posts do not say that Havoc is endgame mode designed for creme de la crop.
99% of people will never see his statement or any of the content creator’s. They take things at face value, and Havoc at face value does not seem to be designed for top players.
Link me the exact sentence where it says that, please. I’ve previously linked their blogposts and it just says it’s escalating difficulty with increasingly harder challenge.
. Which isn’t what I wanted. So my dream of having truly randomized teammates goes down the dumpster, unless I tell them “hey please dont switch your build”. Usually, people either leave or give it 1 try then ragequit after blaming the team comp. “No aoe, no frontliner, no bubble, no gold toughness” etc you name it.