Reaping for Pyro

[Adelion]

@Ensrick

Slightly more consistent, 30% isn’t reliable. Neither is a coin flip. Getting the extra crit chance tied to overcharge makes it less reliable than a flat bonus. It’s give and take.

How long is a stagger animation? 0,5 seconds? 1 second? Point is that in that timeframe where a horde is staggered you easily can land three attacks. That makes 30 % very reliable. Also, flat bonus doesn’t bring you anything if your attack doesnt deal armor damage. Critical hits do this.

@Ensrick

The weapons you mentioned are OP, pyromancer is not and slowdown debuffs from overcharge isn’t analogous to slowdown from having to charge an attack or reload.

But Trollhammer wouldnt be OP if it routed you in place while reloading. Even Javelin wouldnt be annoying anymore if reload would take twice as long and decrease your speed while summoning by 50 % (you know like venting).

@Ensrick

No, because there is a limit based on how long the overcharge lasts and high overcharge restricts your ability to use Staff until it is cleared.

One dodge backwards gives enough time to cast a spell, effectively keeping the heat up all the time. That is not difficult. And just to be sure that there is no confusion with the cooldown comment. For Pyromancer I was arguing that you can have the high crit chance all the time whilw for WHC you have to wait for a cooldown (a low cooldown but a cooldown).

@Ensrick

If a cooldown is meaningless, then why have an overcharge buffer at all? Because it does restrict.
A few seconds to reload a weapon makes a huge difference and, and it is not 3 seconds to clear overcharge without venting.

Not sure what you mean here as it isnt what I said. The overcharge amount is meaningless because of the buffer. It is to late today and I am not home tomorrow but maybe I can make a short video on Wednesday showcasing that you can easily cast a geysir every three seconds due to the overcharge buffer without any need for venting. In worst case I prove myself wrong which would be a good thing.

@Ensrick

I don’t follow the logic you mean reduce a player’s capacity to dodge or block?

No, I don’t intend to reduce dodge or block capacity. I intend to reduce movement speed in certain situations like reloading heavy or magical weapons. The effect is that enemies will close distance faster as you can’t run away as easy anymore. In effect you will have to rely more on dodge and push again and your dps uptime goes down. Best example is Trollhammer. In your Cataclysm QP experience what is more likely? A Trollhammer Torpedo triggering a chaos patrol or ignoring it? In my experience they trigger them. Why should they not. They have one bomb on lmb and then can easily jump away and reload fast enough to finish them. Reloading a Trollhammer while fighting a Chaos Patrol is not as dangerous as one should assume. Decrease speed while reload and this looks different. If a Cataclysm patrol is triggered regularly for flexing, then the powerscale has issues.

@Ensrick

It’s pretty difficult to go through a match without getting hit.

Sure, not getting hit is difficult. But the heavy-hitting attacks are slow and most careers can easily tank one or two horde hits and then build up THP again. Without THP this would be another discussion. But THP is available in large amounts.

@Ensrick

As is, enemies outpace you

It is not only about outpacing. It is about time until engagement. Faster speed means later engagement means more chance to make another destructive attack. I simply want to reduce non-engagement.

@Ensrick

I still there’s room for both playstyles though assuming they are balanced well enough.

I do agree. Though I dont think they are balanced well enough. The dps is over-represented. Then again, it isnt that much. It is like 5-10 % of careers/weapons/synergies are causing the issues. Nerf them and it would be in a better place. And I think taking out some mobility would achieve this quite well. Don’t take away people’s damage. Make it harder to apply, asking for the mastery.

[Ensrick]

A lot of what this comes down to is the question “Is Pyromancer OP with Volan’s Doctrine?” If the answer is no, then what you’re asking for are preferential changes, and as is, I and many others enjoy the crit playstyle, though that doesn’t mean there are no welcome changes to how she performs.

@Adelion

But Trollhammer wouldnt be OP if it routed you in place while reloading. Even Javelin wouldnt be annoying anymore if reload would take twice as long and decrease your speed while summoning by 50 % (you know like venting).

Yeah like venting, not like having a long attack and movement speed debuff to melee and ranged and I don’t think Pyro’s damage output is so insane as to need that extra constraint.

In a scenario where her career functions more like what you were suggesting, as a slow powerful fire ballista, then it would make sense, but I also like having a speedy crit option.

@Adelion

It is to late today and I am not home tomorrow but maybe I can make a short video on Wednesday showcasing that you can easily cast a geysir every three seconds due to the overcharge buffer without any need for venting. In worst case I prove myself wrong which would be a good thing.

A geysir, you mean Coruscation again. That’s Coruscation. You can’t reliably bolt staff the 4-5 specials that pop in together without clearing some space to vent overcharge, and in some situations, and that is a reasonably difficult constraint.

@Adelion

It is not only about outpacing. It is about time until engagement. Faster speed means later engagement means more chance to make another destructive attack. I simply want to reduce non-engagement.

@Adelion

The dps is over-represented.

Agreed, but separate issue really.

@Adelion

Don’t take away people’s damage. Make it harder to apply, asking for the mastery.

I think Pyromancer is one of the careers that does require a bit more mastery. It’s a careful balance of having enough overcharge to do crits for melee moments and enough room in the overcharge to eek out enough ranged attacks. If Pyromancer was comparable to the other comparisons you were making, you’d see Pyromancer being used more often that way, but I really don’t see that.

Again, I think this comes down more to playstyle preference, Pyromancer doesn’t really stand out as OP, but her speedy crit-based hybrid melee/ranged thing isn’t very well thought out when it comes to her talents. If anything, I’m seeing more people complain she is too frail and doesn’t do enough damage; probably because they don’t understand how she plays and it takes time to master, but I don’t think her she is OP or weak.

[Max93]

@GreenColoured

And thematically it’s always been too close to Unchained.

pyromancer is played very different from unchained imo, dont forget the complains are your opinion not the ones of others.

[Max93]

@Ensrick

Again, I think this comes down more to playstyle preference,

most likely is because she is not mobile and cant do fancy things beside dps. But she definitely strong and can surive pretty well with thp ult and the crit playstyle is quite intersting and she is one of the few careers where hunter trait is really damn strong and always active for some nice melee action.

[Adelion]

@Ensrick

A lot of what this comes down to is the question “Is Pyromancer OP with Volan’s Doctrine?”

It is part of the question. I would say that Pyromancer is OP with Volan’s Doctrine as it lets you by-pass several systems in the game like the heat management and the armor damage. But I agree that there are more busted builds for other careers in the game. So another part is simply that I don’t consider the removal of the heat management as good design. It is an interesting mechanic though I know many will disagree with me here. I could argument with lore but I will skip on that point as for most it should come after gameplay.

@Ensrick

A geysir, you mean Coruscation again. That’s Coruscation. You can’t reliably bolt staff the 4-5 specials that pop in together without clearing some space to vent overcharge, and in some situations, and that is a reasonably difficult constraint.

I just mentioned Coruscation because it would be the easiest to apply. It should also work with Fireball Staff. For Bolt and Conflag it is a bit different as you have somewhat longer charge times which means you build tiny amounts of heat before the actual spell. In this case, you would have to wait a bit longer before subsequent spells, most likely along 4-5 seconds. I would also refrain from examples where for some reasons you are the only person responsible for getting rid of all specials and all of them being out of melee range. In most QP games for Legend and Cataclysm, it is usually a race who gets them first.

@Ensrick

I think Pyromancer is one of the careers that does require a bit more mastery. It’s a careful balance of having enough overcharge to do crits for melee moments and enough room in the overcharge to eek out enough ranged attacks. If Pyromancer was comparable to the other comparisons you were making, you’d see Pyromancer being used more often that way, but I really don’t see that.

I would disagree here. I don’t think Pyromancer is particularly difficult to use and does not ask for much mastery. You can have high power without the risk of normal heat management. The only reason why Pyromancer is neglected is she being boring, there is just nothing standing out for her. Her career skill for reasons I cant follow being considered unreliable and weak. And third, Battle Wizard existing which is somehow even easier to play by press F to win.

@Ensrick

Again, I think this comes down more to playstyle preference

I admit that a major reason is preference. As for the frail part, we simply disagree her. Really, I don’t see any Glass Cannons in this game.

[GreenColoured]

That’s literally irrelevant to what I just said. I said thematically.

But you want a comment of how she’s played, Pyro is boring AF and overlaps way too much with unchained. Her entire schtick is “she Crit’s good”

[Ensrick]

@Adelion

In most QP games for Legend and Cataclysm, it is usually a race who gets them first.

In Cataclysm, most players prioritize kills, especially on Legend. Over time, the game has shifted towards a focus on high DPS builds, with many players opting for one-shot strategies to kill first. This trend is more pronounced in Cataclysm, where AOE DPS weapons like Griffin Foot, Hagbane, and Coruscation really put up numbers. Considering this, it might be worthwhile to add the difficulties above Cataclysm (Cata 1, and 3 with DW and ONS) to Campaign mode and Chaos Wastes, along with new cosmetic rewards. Despite a few overpowered weapons which even in higher difficulties will need nerfs, many aggressive tactics stem from adapting to higher difficulties.

I think what you’re seeing with Pyromancer isn’t a lack of mastery, it’s adaptation. I don’t nearly as many Pyromancer’s, not just because Battle Wizard is more powerful; I also see bigger numbers with Unchained, who I think is also more tanky, but capable of putting up similar damage, and so is WHC.

@Adelion

I admit that a major reason is preference. As for the frail part, we simply disagree her. Really, I don’t see any Glass Cannons in this game.

If that’s true, you’re far more experienced at staying alive in this game than I am. Any career with less than 125 health, and I tend to get downed once or twice on Cataclysm missions when playing with quick-play randos, even if I’m doing great damage.

I would encourage you to look at things contextually rather than just basing it on your personal experience playing the game because it sounds like you’re at a point where you’ve adapted to the game enough to trivialize the challenge in many areas.

Pyromancer has comparatively lower health, fewer talent, and fewer weapons for playing in a tank fashion, even when compared to many other DPS-focused careers, and on top of that, though her damage output is high, rarely do I see a Pyromancer outdo Unchained by much damage or WHC, or Slayer while having lower health than both of them, even when using Bonded Flame. Her THP gain rate is decent when attack speed gets high with say dagger or 1H sword, but nowhere near as crazy as Stagger THP gets.

@Max93

most likely because she is not mobile and can’t do fancy things beside DPS. But she definitely strong and can surive pretty well with thp ult and the crit playstyle is quite intersting and she is one of the few careers where hunter trait is really damn strong and always active for some nice melee action.

Exactly, she’s not speeding through the mission with movement speed bonuses while being tanky like Zealot and she is on the strong side for DPS, but not in the OP category for me. I call her a glass cannon because besides Bonded Flame, she doesn’t have many talents for survival compared to most careers. There are a few others for mobility and damage reduction on the level 25 row, but nobody is taking those given Volan’s Doctrine.

[Adelion]

@Ensrick

Considering this, it might be worthwhile to add the difficulties above Cataclysm (Cata 1, and 3 with DW and ONS) to Campaign mode and Chaos Wastes, along with new cosmetic rewards. Despite a few overpowered weapons which even in higher difficulties will need nerfs, many aggressive tactics stem from adapting to higher difficulties.

Or we actually balance the game in a way that Legend and Cataclysm provide more of a challenge and call for more cooperative play instead of diluting the existing player pool over even more difficulties. And risking people calling for more buffs to be able to cakewalk Cata 3+ because it is part of official and needs to be beaten reliably. Aggression should not be rewarded as much as it is in the game.

@Ensrick

I think what you’re seeing with Pyromancer isn’t a lack of mastery, it’s adaptation. I don’t nearly as many Pyromancer’s, not just because Battle Wizard is more powerful; I also see bigger numbers with Unchained, who I think is also more tanky, but capable of putting up similar damage, and so is WHC.

Unchained could also small changes but I can’t comment on her numbers because it is the career I play most on Cataclysm. As for WHC, it is easy to rack up numbers with crit-based play and 100 % melee during career skill.

@Ensrick

If that’s true, you’re far more experienced at staying alive in this game than I am. Any career with less than 125 health, and I tend to get downed once or twice on Cataclysm missions when playing with quick-play randos, even if I’m doing great damage.

I would consider myself below average. It is not that I don’t go down, happens quite often. But to get to this point, I need to make multiple mistakes in a row, at least 3-4 subsequently. Getting to far away from the group, overheat to much, bad awareness, wrong timing, etc. I could have prevented my down multiple times before. Even then, my team mates can still save me.

If I look at other games, then glass cannons are mostly about awareness of the surroundings and positioning. ONE mistake and I am dead meat. In most ARPGs like Heroes of Hammerwatch (just to use an example), dodge is by chance and block doesnt even exist. One mistake and the enemies have crippled me and I am dead. In Vermintide even when surrounded you still have two or three options to get out again and before getting in that situation you need have made a mistake like leaving the group to far away and not controlling the horde. Heck, even in L4D Expert, you make one mistake and you are mostly dead meat. No block or dodge. There is push but that has also been nerfed in the second part. Burning tanks makes you unable to outrun them. These are glass cannons. You can kill most infected with few bullets but one bad decision and it is over. Vermintide is extremely forgiving in this regard.

@Ensrick

I would encourage you to look at things contextually rather than just basing it on your personal experience playing the game because it sounds like you’re at a point where you’ve adapted to the game enough to trivialize the challenge in many areas.

Certainly not at a point where it trivializes the game. As said, I make many mistakes. But they are most often simply forgiven. Also, my experience is based on what I see in quickplay others doing. While you can still consider this personal experience, I think you won’t get a broader overview of the balance in the game then doing exactly that. Playing QP on Legend and Cataclysm.

@Ensrick

Pyromancer has comparatively lower health, fewer talent, and fewer weapons for playing in a tank fashion

My point is that you don’t need high health and tank talents to be able to have a high survivability as all methods to avoid or reduce damage are in player hand. Again, in other games many of these mechanics are not present or bound to chance. For Vermintide, you need to make multiple mistakes before it starts punishing you which contrasts the idea of a glass cannon. And the reason, it seems difficult is because the game balance removes your concentration. The balance line is so high on Cataclysm that most of the time, you can deal with threats without much effort because the game has to high level of redundancy. Then you get careless and a slight spike comes and people make errors because they have grown over-confident.

Like the argument that rushers diminishing everything in their way are not an issue because they get killed after a third of the map. That he dies, doesnt mean that the game and set-up is balanced and that it totally is a co-op experience because that one hookrat got him. That he could get this far before dying, that is the balance issue.

Hm … I think I lost the red string somewhere in that rant. But again, let us disagree. I don’t think this is leading anywhere.

[Ensrick]

@Adelion

And risking people calling for more buffs to be able to cakewalk Cata 3+ because it is part of official and needs to be beaten reliably. Aggression should not be rewarded as much as it is in the game.

Agreed, yeah, but nerf the stuff that needs, nerfing and add higher difficulties with new cosmetic rewards still might help.

@Adelion

Unchained could also small changes but I can’t comment on her numbers because it is the career I play most on Cataclysm. As for WHC, it is easy to rack up numbers with crit-based play and 100 % melee during career skill.

Yes, and, wouldn’t you agree that they are more survivable than Pyro?

@Adelion

These are glass cannons. You can kill most infected with few bullets but one bad decision and it is over. Vermintide is extremely forgiving in this regard.

I stay within the context of the game I’m playing when it comes to balance™, because you’re introducing so many variables and there’s so much more nuance when comparing apples and oranges. As far as I’m concerned, though Darktide and Vermintide are horde games, they’re in a genre of their own. I just don’t play other horde games.

@Adelion

Also, my experience is based on what I see in quickplay others doing.

With mastery, others can make things look easier than they are, or, vice-versa, and again, I don’t see many Pyromancer players, maybe because the other three Sienna careers are so strong, but by the numbers, it’s not that impressive.

She lacks diverse talent options that significantly change the way she plays, and that stands out far more than any other issue people might have with her.

[Max93]

@Ensrick

Yes, and, wouldn’t you agree that they are more survivable than Pyro?

i would say they are equal in terms of survivability at situation where you arent stuck in horde without an escape. The THP on ult is really neat if you ate an hit and drop below 50% health. Just press F and its like nothing happened. With the other careers you have shouts and mobility, which are better if you are stucked. In such situations a pyro would die. But in every other situations the THP gives you more.

But yeah you dont have that much clutch potiential, you have a harder time picking up teammates who are on the ground, you have a harder time to reach your downed teammates. The ult doesnt help your team etc. IF you rate your survivability on that as well you are right.

I rate it on my own capabilities to stay alive and there i would say pyro isnt worse, except if you are stucked.

Just to be clear, the ultimate of the other careers and the mobility and shouts are still better, because if you can help your team survive you will be able to finish the run with less problems. It doesnt help much if you can stay alive because of your thp on ult but you cant help your teammates.
Thats why pyro isnt played much in higher difficulties where people are tryharding.

[Ensrick]

At least Unchained can use the ult to restore health to the entire team.

[Adelion]

If you use it and the team is close enough. Personally, I do not use the THP talent for several reasons. As for survivability, they feel about the same to me as both can technically die in one or two hits due to Unchained’s Blood Magic. Especially, if pressured in horde. There are obviously differences like being able to tank a SV overhead (though I shouldnt do this). But also my approach for the two careers is different with Pyromancer thinning out the field a lot more before getting in close combat and also concentrating on armored more then which is easier due to the many crits. While Unchained is mostly in the face or horde enemies for me.

So yea, they feel about the same in survivability.

[WhereIsBaoDur]

@Adelion

the ability the players have in addition to the panic button, push, dodge and block makes it very hard to challenge them outside of spamming enemies. This smoothing out of everything is detrimental. The game needs a bit more clunkiness and some more slow downs where justified in order to make weapons not longer feel like massless toys and making players flail their arms.

I agree so much with this sentiment! It’s hard to imagine VT2 (or 3) without ultimates, but I still believe VT1 combat was more engaging. A tiny group of rats could be a huge problem, because your weapon could be slow as hell. On the other hand, the feeling of brandishing something huge and unweildy as a greataxe really was something special, all the more for it.

[Ensrick]

I don’t use the THP talent on Unchained either. You get tons of AOE and DOT damage from Wildfire. Unchained is my favorite Sienna career and I don’t find Blood Magic damage to overcharge to be all that bad and I value the melee 60% power more than the crits.

I take the Chain Reaction talent with Fireball for to get hordes burning and then use Crowbill or Firesword depending on whether I want to focus on armor or crowds. (Flail is great but a bit OP, so I haven’t used it in some time.)

My favorite build goes 1 OR 2, 3, 3, 1, 1, 2

It’s an offensive build but with the 50% bonus block cost reduction from Dissipate and Enfeebling Flames, when I get surrounded, a high overcharge isn’t too bad because it turns into block cost reduction and I just take a few hits to my Stamina, I’m not usually in any trouble and can tank for quite a bit. I intentionally block a hit and get thrown by monsters or elites sometimes to clear overcharge.

I can usually go through a Cataclysm mission without dying with Unchained and I’ve clutched against Chaos Warrior patrols. I can’t do that with Pyromancer and I usually go down once or twice with Pyromancer.

[GreenColoured]

@Max93

i would say they are equal in terms of survivability at situation where you arent stuck in horde without an escape. The THP on ult is really neat if you ate an hit and drop below 50% health. Just press F and its like nothing happened. With the other careers you have shouts and mobility, which are better if you are stucked. In such situations a pyro would die. But in every other situations the THP gives you more.

This is only the case if you picked that THP Talent. Granted it’s almost the case a person will pick it since the other two blows. One removes your overcharge you saved up to boost her while the other is RNG reliant. But ultimately she is one of the less survivable careers overall, and among her careers, easily the least survivable between one who can use a dash (and a stagger talent no less) and a shout that has a THP talent for the whole entire party (and two other viable alternatives) alongside Blood Magic and even multiple survivability talents along the way.

The THP talent is nice to have on her unpredictable nuke, but it’s advantage is lessened if you’re talking about situations when you’re not already surrounded as in those situations the other careers can relatively easily generate THP like any other careers.

But survivability isn’t even the issue here. For pyro it’s one of identity and utility…as in she has none. She does more Crits, but not in even any interesting way like SoTT or WHC. It doesn’t have any reasons for player to pick.

[Max93]

I dont really get what you mean with identity because the critical strike mechanic of WHC is damn simple and unspectacular as well.

and somehow i like the crit mechanic of her because she is one of the view careers where you can do hunter and heatsink builds quite efficient.

But these things aside, i think we can all agree that she needs a bit of a rework, even if i like her current state.

But the fact that there is only 1 viable talent option for level 5/15/25 and 30 is a bit poor. So you only have a real choice for level 10 and level 20…

and if they rework the level 30 talent then they should rework the whole ultimate as well.

[GreenColoured]

@Max93

I dont really get what you mean with identity because the critical strike mechanic of WHC is damn simple and unspectacular as well

Rather than simply boosting critical % WHC also have an instant-kill on a critical headshot, plus a number of ways to guarantee a critical hit which feels way more satisfying than the knowledge that you’ll be critting more often. FS can make his crits weaker and it’ll still feel more satisfying than Pyro’s.

Other interesting usage of Crits is Lingering Black Venom and the double guaranteed Crits talent on the Sister. Pyromancer? It’s just flat.

Part of the fault lies in the fact that Sienna have the exact same arsenal across all her careers (Necro staff being the sole exception) which limited another avenue to build on their identities.