Buffing pyromancer

Warhammer: Vermintide 2 Gameplay Feedback
1

Pyromancer is the worst career in game.
Pyromancer may can do decent dps. But this game isn’t about doing more damage. Main thing is about survive and clear.
Killing infantry increases damage output. If dps is that important, everyone should use flamethrower.

Pyro lacks everything other than damage output. Bad survivability and utility and the worst ult in game.
Consequently pyro is powerful on easy difficulty where you can do only dps without threat, but weak on higher difficulty.

My main was pyro before WOM. I almost only played this career but not anymore.
I had to vent more to kill more stuff but hp is limited. That caused bad survivability. You have to spend half hp to kill a monster.
When cata first came out, gameplay was solely focused on survivability so i abandoned pyro.

Her problems are ult and talent and that’s all of career. Zealot has at least good talents.

-First, ult just doesn’t work. Broken. It hits trash mobs and doesn’t cleave enough.
Ult needs more cleave and I suggest AOE explosion.
Cleave through enemy until meets target then explode doing headshot to target and bodyshot to near.
Also motion speed and flying speed should be increased.

-Second, talent. Most of talents have ridiculous conditions to meet.
Maintaining above 80% hp?
Killing elite or special in every 10s on my own?
Maintaining above 80% heat?
But rewards are soso, maybe worse than other career’s talent with easy trigger.

Currently,

10lv, every talents need to be changed.

Ride the Fire Wind(1~20% dmg boost) : plz 10% flat dmg or power.

Martial Study (5% AS) : delete

Spirit-Casting (10% Crit above 80% HP) : alleviate condition. Above 50% or Below 80% maybe?

20lv, also niche.

Deathly Dissipation(Free overcharge upon special kill) : Duration is so annoying while playing with this. I couldn’t properly use 10s.
Only used this for killing consecutive special kill. Stacks like BH’s swap buff would be nice. And also works on ally’s special kill.
1 stack for 1 casting, stack up to 10.

On the Precipice(15% dmg above 80% overcharge) : Too much condition, lower to 50% overcharge like unchained. Why offensive talent on 20lv?

One with the Flame(2% AS per passive stack) : 3% per stack would be nice.

25lv. No brainer.
Soul Siphon (10% DR upon special or elite kill, stacks up to 3) : Worst kind of DR talent. Need to be consistent. Make it work with crit.
To be different from shade, maybe permanent stacks? How about this? Crit gives 0.5%DR and stack up to 60.

The Volans Doctrine (No slowdown) : Must pick. Nothing to pick other and this is too good. I think this should be passive like unchained.

Fleetflame(movement speed) : Unless permanent stacks, no reason to pick.

+Pyromancer need conduit talent(unchained venting talent). Taking 9 hp for fully venting seems bad idea.

-Change suggestion.

Ult : Cleave through enemy until meets target then explode.

passive : No slowdown.

10lv

1)15%dmg boost above 50% overcharge.

2)10% crit chance with better condition.

3)Other powerful dmg boost talent.
Like 20% ally dmg boost on burning target.

20lv

1)Free overcharge with better condition

2)Conduit of unchained

3)3% AS per passive stack

25lv

1)Better kind of DR. Maybe permanent stack.

2,3)New interesting talents.
Like fully charged crit spell applies knockback to monster. BCR on high overheat. Thp on ranged crit.

I think still pyro should be pure dps career. But a bit of utility wouldn’t hurt. Especially, utility on ult.

5 Likes
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Never thought I’d live to see this…

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Ok so I disagree wholeheartedly with all of this. DPS is important because it translates into survival and clear. Pyromancer does good damage not just to hordes but also to elites, bosses and also specials depending on build choice.

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Yeah I also disagree with basically all of this. Safety comes in many forms, and Pyro has quite a few things going for her defensively:

  • Access to high attack speed through talents and high swift slaying uptime. Allows very quick block cancelling and high levels of control with good cleave weapons
  • Bonus stagger from crits also help with control
  • High DPS at range AND melee means you can delete most threats comfortably at any range and stop them becoming a threat
  • Temp health on Ult talent, which is both great for survivability and also helps you never dip into green health while venting
  • Good synergy with dagger which has decent move tech for extra mobility
  • Talent for no slowdown on high overcharge, making it arguably safer to be at high overcharge with Pyro than it is with UC…

Sure she looks a touch lackluster compared to BW, but so does basically every other class. Not saying Pyro couldn’t use some adjustments here and there, but I don’t think a straight buff is what she needs.

6 Likes
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There is effective dps and not effective dps. Effective dps means killing the most dangerous things fast. Hordes, stormvermin, maulers, berzerkers relatively are not dangerous but CWs, monks are. Anything can kill hordes, SVs, maulers, berzerkers easily.
Most of pyromancer use fireball and fireball can’t kill monks and CWs before it comes.
But BH can do this and that makes BH so powerful.

Do you really think pyromancer has good survivablility? even among ranged career?
Huntsman and RV has stealth, waystalker has good ult and good mobility on ranged weapon. BH has the best weapons, rapier and BOP. The best survivability even without stealth.
But about pyro. 1 dodge count of staff. Ult which can’t be rely on, with very very long motion.

Pyro is also the worst at special among ranged career because ult doesn’t work.

I think pyro has meaningless dps and the worst survivability.
What only good at is monster dps but worse than BW and BH.

For hordes, you don’t have to kill it fast. Also, every melee career can melts horde with elites.

Honestly, I don’t know why I have to say these things. Pyromancer is just bad. You are just insisting that pyromancer is good! But I haven’t seen pyromancer works really well. I also can’t perform well as pyro even though i played this thing a lot.

In your regard you would say if you are good enough, everything can work. This is not pvp and anything can clear normal cataclysm qp.
But there are higher difficulty, balance and meta. I’m talking about comparison. As difficulty arise, killing things takes more time. You have to kite inevitably. Most dangerous things are monks, CWs, specials while monster battle. Pyromancer has the worst kite ability in this situation. If you die, you become nothing. You have to wait until your ally does super play and save you. Playing pyromancer makes hard game more harder. I don’t want pryomancer in my room and that’s why I want buffing pyromancer.

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Eh I kinda disagree that only CWs and monks are actually dangerous. Handling yourself well in melee and ranged against the majority of threats is definitely valuable. How many good CW killers do you need in a party? Also bolt and Ult both do a respectable job against them. You love making comparisons to BH but killing CWs and bosses is just about all he’s good at (special sniping barely counts, most melee careers can do that just fine without sacrificing anything). That makes him way way more dependent on his team in a lot of situations to be effective.

No, I don’t think she has great survivability, maybe even second worst amongst ranged career, but solid enough for a ranged career with very good sustained DPS. Don’t really wanna make this into a BH vs Pyro thread but I think Pyro undoubtedly has better survivability than BH. She has WAY better temp health generation and has access to significant amounts of attack speed and huge crit chance. This makes her very significantly more safe and effective in melee range, and her sustained ranged DPS is better to boot. The Ult is the only thing she has that is objectively bad, but it can at least generate temp health for you which is not bad at all.

I gave a list of reasons for why I think she’s at least ok. You are the one insisting she’s bad. Plenty of people can perform with Pyro. I’ve seen people use her to good effect on C3DWONS. Also, if you look at the other posts in this thread so far, I’m clearly not the only one who thinks she’s at least fine.

That is true but isn’t what I’m saying. I’m saying her kit is fine, strong even. Again she could probably use some tweaks here and there but she does not need massive buffs like you’re suggesting here.

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What the funk are you smoking.

This thing is 100% similar to the pyromancer one if we are talking how unreliable they are, it frequently just flies off to nowhere or even backwards to slaverats rather than the red target.

Good cleave? Waystalker F might have a bit more cleave but Sienna´s F does more damage. It might have changed a bit but in the past this was clearly visible in how keri F could not kill a chaos warrior without building for it while Sienna F could.

Lets compare some more.

  • Sniping? Boltstaff can onehit stormvermin on bodyshots with some builds without any requirements like waystalker blood shot.(legend)
  • AOE? Flamethrower, Fireballs and conflagation baby, only time hagbane wins is on bosses with a str pot at which point we are talking boss killing.
  • Melee? Waystalker does win here for although they are equally fragile she does have better weapons and regen.

It never hit you that the reason you dont see pyromancers is because you are the one playing it? If you cant make it work then naturally you wont see a pyromancer making it work.

And even if you play something else, how often and how much? Because right now you are just saying “i cant make pyromancer work and i may or may not have seen others playing her do poorly too”.

Well guess what, i have seen pyromancers do exceedingly well, infuriatingly so even when i am trying to headshot things only to have them bodyshot nearly every target of interest while i am still aiming. Or have them mow down everything smaller than a chaos warrior with AOE while i am sitting on the side wondering if i´ll get to melee anything.

The only reason i do not play Sienna myself is because i find her melee arsenal to be crap, that´s it.

1 Like
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Soul Siphon for damage reduction
Bonded Flame for THP to use to vent

60% block cost reduction

Hold F to target specific enemies. Be careful though because even if a target gets highlighted, if they are behind a wall then the Burning Head still has a chance to hit the wall or bounce off another obstacle.

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I admit that I’m not that expert about Pyro. I used her for the 100 victories challenge and little more… so she’s the career I have played less.

Anyway I agree with @jiyakelma… I mean, Pyro is not that bad, the problem is that if I want to play a pure mage BW is better; if I want to play a melee/range hybrid UC is better.

I feel like Pyro needs an high skill level (wich is good)… but the reward is nothing special compared with easier careers to play.

1 Like
10

Ok, lets get into this.

First off all i don’t agree with your first opinion that pyromancer is the worst career in the game, altough you do make some good points later on, just don’t think being extreme helps. Pyro is currently a very balanced career. Yes she has some talents that aren’t perfect, but she is great imo. has to rely on her teammates to create space, cannot just invis or stagger a group.

Ultimate:

Pyro’s ultimate is similar to waystalkers ultimate, The only significant difference between the 2, are that burning head staggers bosses and trueflight has more armor cleave. So burning head when it hits an armored target = stop; trueflight can kill 3 sv’s with 1 ultimate.

martial study:

yes, agree, pretty bad talent.

Spirit casting:

Yes, being above 80% hp is pretty extreme, but it works with temp hp and synergizes extremely well with bonded flame or melee builds (due to the sheer amount of temp hp you can get). Also syngerises well with a mercenary. I don’t think this talent needs any changing, the only thing i could see them do would be to give 5% crit above 50% hp and 10% crit above 80%, this way taking a bit of unlucky hits wouldn’t result in the talent being down, if that makes sense. (this suggestion isn’t mine btw).

Deathly dissapation:

This one is weird. This is a very strong talent. Being able to cast freely for 10 seconds is pretty insane, the issue lies in having to kill specials, although pyro can snipe specials with her ult regardless of what staff she is using, making this a very reliable pick, the biggest issue is finding those specials. This is mostly an issue with most talents that revolve around proccing on a certain amount of enemy killed. On higher difficulties, this isn’t an issue, i will have a special available to me (most of the time, unless i play an entire sniper comp) and i will have enemies to use my 10 seconds free casting on. It just so happens that i played some legend a couple days back and used this talent, when i could finally snipe a special kill from my team i had to run forward to find enemies to use my casts on. In legend this wasn’t up alot in situations i needed it, especially when ur team is sniping alot of the specials.

On the other hand, removing the “kill special” condition, would make this talent busted, so not sure what to do here.

On the precipice:

Maintaining above 80% heat is not an issue tbh. This talent has uses in heatsink builds if you wanna range mostly, or can also play more hybrid and let it manually decay untill up to a certain point (melee meanwhile) and then cast again. Also one tap on the vent button, from max overcharge vents exactly enough to keep the buff active constantly. This is alot of effort and risk, but it exists and i personally enjoy that.

One with the flame:

Great talent for melee focussed builds, synergises extremely well with the volans doctrine and the insane crit chance pyro has.

Soul siphon:

Yes, this is a pretty bad talent, might work maybe on some bolt pyro builds, where ur focus is mainly specials, but also the issue of it being on the same row as volans doctrine doesn’t really help aswell.

To be honest, alot of careers have pretty much constant dmg reduction talents.

  • shade has dmg on crits
  • Bw has dmg red on burning enemies
  • Huntsman has to kill enemies but it doesnt go away after a certain amount of time
  • rv, dmg red on headshots

So alot they could do here. They could either make it work on crits, this would be a pretty much constant uptime, but bw with ss also has a constant uptime and everyone seems fine with that, so shouldn’t be an issue. Or they could just make it stay and not go away after 10 seconds.

Volans doctrine:

Yep, its an insanely good talent. not sure if it should be made a passive, but it does eliminate alot of choice and i’m not sure its possible to make the other 2 talents on that row interesting enough for players to actually consider choosing one of them.

Fleetflame:

Yes, not sure about permannt stacks. proc on crits is basically up all the time, unless outside of combat and you want to have it up outside of combat. Also i think movement speed on that row is kinda of meh.

Hope this helped, I wouldn’t change ultimate honestly, think her ultimate is fine, while a bit lacking on armor cleave, i think thats not a really big issue. If they make one change to it, i would maybe make it cleave 2 armored targets, like sv’s or armored specials, but not sure.

Currently pyro is in a pretty good spot. has alot of build choices and talent choices. Yes some rows are pretty locked and i agree they need to be looked at.

edit: Forgot to touch upon your venting issues.
One extra “mechanic” thats on sienna careers is heat/health managament. her heat is her ammo sustain, and that indirectly makes her health her ammo sustain, the more health she has to work with the more ammo she has. Ofcourse health is also a resource used to survive and take damage in certain situations, so thats something that only sienna has and others ranged careers don’t have. Ofcourse currently i think pyro is fine and that she gets alot of free heat, in terms of bonded flame (which gives survivability + ammo sustain), exhaust (which allows you to burst or just not vent at all manually and adopt a more hybrid playstyle), Blazing echo is pretty rng, but also pretty fun (most people use this on melee only builds, where temp hp isn’t rlly an issue and you don’t need to vent much).

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The thing is that pyro is pretty dam well balanced currently, its just that we are comparing its power to some of the absolutely disgusting outliers we currently have.

I’ve personally played the career a lot recently and despite some of my earlier concerns, the career is perfectly capable and sometimes even has pretty insane melee potential if you build for it.

Only thing I would personally love to see is some buffs to the career ability’s animations because sometimes especially when you try to cancel it, it just feels an absolute ass play around.
Some of the talents might also require a slight update to current standards but its really nothing that’s unique to pyro only.

4 Likes
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That’s a fantastic write up, thoroughly agreed with all of it.

Could we all reasonably agree that Soul Siphon and Fleet Flame could both very safely get a straight buff and there’d be no issues? Personally I’d probably knock Soul Siphon up to at least 20% DR and then I think it’d have some use. Fleet Flame I’d similarly bump it up to 20%, so 4 stacks total (any less than this feels kinda worthless for a move speed increase TBH) and maybe give it an additional effect like 2.5% dodge range increase per stack (so 10% max with 4 stacks). I think that’d be a solidly worthwhile alternative, especially for those who don’t like to sit at very high overheat, and value kiting ability.

I think that’d be a pretty fair change honestly. Mostly though it just needs better AI IMO.

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We kind of have to buff those talents, they are pretty bad, even if we remove the overshadowing from volans doctrine.

I think removing the timer on the dmg reduction and just making it more consistent is a way to go.

Movement speed, not sure. not a fan of movement speed talents if i’m honest. We could give more dodge range on it, sure.

Yea the targetting is pretty bad. especially in high density situations.

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Your just playing her wrong then… She has a few builds but their super effective.

Talent trees can always use a new iteration as long as they don’t tear apart her core / best talents my main one is temp health on ult. May expect some changes to careers on release of new ones.

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Wait wut? Buffing already good class? What is this an wutelgi? Just freaking balance BW and thats it

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Sometimes, I miss early Pyro Sienna. She was OP, but was really fun.

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That’s more because BW needs a nerf

Also I wholeheartedly disagree that UC is better in that regard. She’s better in terms of being a THP battery for the team but her dps output is significantly lower

Zerkers and Monks are equally easy to kill so I don’t get what you’re on about here

BH is also decidedly not a massive meta pick rn because his melee is rather weak compared to other classes. But yes someone who is very good at BH can kill CW very easily, as can shade, GK, piercing shot WS, Huntsman…the list goes on.

that’s just not true though and I’m really not sure how else to say that. Ranger Vet with a grudgeraker must be useless too then since he doesn’t dumpster Chaos Warriors?

I’ve seen plenty of great pyro players and I can get some great mileage out of her myself despite not playing it much. So idk what to tell ya on that front.

her kiting is equal with BH so idk what to make of this

aside from high end weaves and modded realm difficulties there really isn’t a whole lot else in terms of higher difficulties. Weaves have their own meta because it’s a fundamentally different game mode. Modded realm’s meta doesn’t include Bounty Hunter at all and has seen a lot more pyromancer play than BH play.

Only thing I can really agree with is that her ult could be made a little more exciting

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Pyromancer has indeed become, imho, Sienna’s “worst” carreer. Pyro is relatively boring, as she has basically one shtick, which is crits, that simply doesn’t synergize well with her weaponry, at least ranged, that is.

The main reason being that crits doesn’t do anything for burn damage and even has diminishing results on one of her staffs (flamethrower).

Almost all of her ranged weaponry is alot more consistent AND has higher potential on BW than on Pyro. Fireball is, arguably, better on Pyro because of its good overcharge management, its spamability and the fact that charging is both fast and usually only your opener, since uncharged spam has better DPS. Put hunter on it and it works.

She does have access to good AS, but this makes her, again, rather boring to play. You pretty much stack crits and AS and go for it.

Also, her active ability is just a worse version of trueshot volley.

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Imho sienna worst carrer is BW, its most boring class of her. Pyro and unchained needs to balance overcharge for higher gain all of her weapons are viable on that classes and there is no clear op option vs not op option.

but yeah pyro ult is crapola, long animation facepalming tracking and quite low penetration. It could atleat explode on end

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Before the next expansions release its going to be generally bit pointless to talk about balance anyways. We might have multiple system reworks by then or we might just have the new weapons.