hehe - yeah! We’re actually fixing the talent so it’ll work better and provide more immediate effects. Stay tuned!
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So cataclysm does not go up to 2.6x stagger damage anymore then? That was kind of a point of contention because the patch notes only mentioned legend.
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Pin this thread! And thanks for the knowledge post
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I love you and thank you for all the clarification 
Is there any chance that the keep dummy will become staggerable so we can test these mechanics ourselves in the future?
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Nope, looking at stabilizing damage_multiplier at 0.5 across all difficulties, so max 2.0x damage. Been experimenting with lower - it is a balancing act between the multiplier and enemy health increase and we’ll see where we’ll end up.
0.25x multiplier and LIVE-similar healthvalues is also interesting, makes the system way less invasive but also makes the game much easier… We’ll see.
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yeah - the dummy would really need an update. I’ll make sure to check out what can be done! Might be a bit tricky…
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cool, thanks. though with the .25x and live hp you’ll just have it go straight back to 4 individuals using the highest dps weapons available and not teamplay.
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Thanks for all of the info, could we get a similar rundown of the new enemy pathing and slot systems by chance? if so that would be great and thanks again for clarifying stagger 
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By any chance can we get something like jail with different enemies on which we can test stuff? We know that Saltz sometimes bringing dead vermins to the keep, but what if he bring them alive?
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Thanks for all the answers, this is really nice to know.
So special case question: if you break a shielded Stormvermin’s guard, are they counting as staggered the entire time they stand there in a daze?
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Yup. So shielded enemies have a stagger value threshold for when to open their block - stormvermins will be att like stagger value 4 when they become dazed and stay at that level until they start acting again.
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That is great info, thank you.
My feedback to this, is that it sounds great, but values are too big imo.
the stagger multi is capped at 2, and you’re saying that it’s 0-1-2 so it’s 0% bonus, 50% bonus and 100% bonus with 2 pushes basically ? Or am I getting it wrong ?
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Correct
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@Ratherdone Will you re-balance bomb and distance damage to catch up with the increased HP? Some weapons struggle to 1-hit headshot stormvermin in Legend, something that was not a problem in Live. The elgi longbow, for example. To be able to reach that breakpoint again you need all bonuses in weapon + trinkets.
Also, bombs feels useless now, especially explosive bombs. They need to deal more damage against elites.
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Yes, breakpoints and individual weapon tweaks will need to be finetuned and tweaked as the release balance is locked down. This first Beta round had very rough values and was more of a ballpark reaction on how far we can push health values and new systems.
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Thank you 
that is great to know. Our Discord server was worried 
Any idea about the time the big patch will come?
I think the current HP, stagger values and general mob beefiness feels pretty good, yes some breakpoint tweaks would be nice, but I was really pleasantly surprised that it feels great. Deathwish is just too much of a SpongeRat thing. Fun to play here and there, but not as core imo.
But 100% MORE damage on two pushes… I wish this will get toned down, that’s way too much. Double damage after bullying the rat a little 
And it’s especially ridiculous on bosses, I don’t even know what happened on War Camp with Bodwarr when we played it, but like I rammed him with FK, Pyro blasted ult into him and than others poked him a little and the guy was dead in like 5 seconds or so… that can’t be 100% more dmg, we couldn’t kill Bodwars that fast playing Reverse Twins with 300% dmg.
I would like to see more conservative numbers, it’s new mechanic, why go overboard like this and push … new push bully the rats meta ?
I think that even half of that, 25-50% more damage, is massive bonus. Massive … since where else can u get 50% more damage, nowhere. 100% seems just crazy high.
EDIT:
Oh, great! But to clarify, with lower stagger bonus, HP would also need buffing so we don’t get the mentioned “much easier…” scenario, but similar feel to what we have now, just less push meta oriented.
Damn it, I also thought that way this works is I will get more dmg on first hit I apply to the enemy 
I really need the show damage mod for beta.
I think there needs to be some ignore stagger, do full stagger dmg on weapons like daggers and similar if the stagger bonus is not going to get toned down, because now the S&D (used this a lot for weaves) feels very weak.
At first I though these new talents will help, but they really did not, now I know why, because I still have to stagger first to get the benefit.
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yeah - so this is what the talents are somewhat targetting, allowing you to get a “opt-out” option to some degree if you will. New versions for testing will be:
Assassain talent does 1.0 + stagger_value* 0.5 (so goes 1.0, 1.5, 2.0 based on stagger count) on headshot/crit
Smiter talent does 0.5 + stagger_value (so goes 0.5, 1.5, 2.5 based on stagger count) and removes stagger damage bonus from subsequent targets
We will tweak and tune as we move along and please feedback and discuss.
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I see, sounds interesting, just to make sure I understand what “first target means”. Is it in a sense of first target when cleaving ? Because I don’t see any other meaning of first target.
Like if I use executioner, and hit 3 rats, only first rattie gets the bonus ? If so, what if I than hit different rat, and also the same rat… like doing swing from the other side, imagine 3 rats before me and I spam lights. Do I get 2 rats with smiter bonus after two light attacks ? And the rat in the middle is not getting the bonus or only the rat I hit first with the second attack gets the bonus and the rat I hit with the first one will lose it because " and removes stagger damage bonus from subsequent targets " ?
If it removes the bonus this way, than that would make it kinda meh… talent I think. Because one often hits lots of stuff during the chaotic fights.