After they have been buffed a few patches ago any number of them feels terrible to melee with anything aside from a few specialized builds (Zealot’s Crusher, Duelling Sword, Ogryn gets a pass fortunately). I asked for this some time ago and feel like it’s good time to remind about it - I think they should be nerfed.
They happen to combine the following qualities:
incredible attack speed
short attack windup (likely a result of the previous point)
significant reach
long attack trigger range
high mid-combo movement speed (they start attacking ~8m away and can keep up with most characters’ backpedal speed)
high stagger resistance and quick stagger recovery
no cooldown period between combos
This results in a very efficient deterrent for almost all common (‘old balance’) melee weapons. It should also be noted that many families have low stagger modifiers against Maniac armor type to boot (~0.5-0.7 usually, eg. Thunder Hammer, Bully Club, Shock Maul, Bolt Pistol, Autoguns) which isn’t part of the enemy profile per se but further exacerbates the issue alongside obfuscating it.
Obviously the problem only occurs when Dreg Ragers are either in large enough group or accompanied by other enemies. Since it’s Darktide we’re talking about, I feel confident stating that it’s likely to be ~99.9999999% of cases without any data nor even anecdotal evidence to back it up.
One concern I see with making them more approachable to melee again is reducing the challenge the game presents. While fairness towards the player and respecting his agency should always come first before providing sufficient challenge, I feel like in those times of rampant power creep it should be addressed by eg. rolling out the change in parallel with all necessary nerfs to the players’ kits (Voice of Command, Duelling Sword etc). Making enemies fair and engaging without having them pose no threat is neither an unsolvable problem nor even a challenging one.
As for how exactly they should be adjusted in order to alleviate this issue - being a result of so many compounding characteristics of this enemy, probably many of them should be brought down at once with at least one receiving a significant decrease (eg. reduce mid-combo movement speed slightly and attack trigger range significantly). There are many ways to do, I’m not sure what the best one is but anything would be welcome.
Personal Idea - becoming more aggressive on low HP
On a more personal note, I had an idea that I think would work with whatever balancing path is taken here: there should be a major power reduction for this enemy type, even to the point of them being somewhat weak - but when they fall below a certain HP threshold (~50%) they would get their current profile back. I think that solution would make engaging them in melee not only more appealing, but also add a tactical angle to it (as players would be highly incentivized to cull the wounded enemies).
In any case - please make them more approachable in melee without buffing all the melee weapons that struggle with them into stratosphere. Pretty please.
since the attack speed of the ragers was significantly slowed down in the previous update,i don’t think there’s a problem rn.
rather than nerf the enemies, it would be better to first address the player’s nerf. Issues like VoC, Chorus, and DS should be considered only if they get nerfed.
Ragers are fine on Damnation. There are plenty of options to stagger them available to every class and they’re only a real threat in large packs. Sound cues not playing for Specialists are the real threat, but that has gotten better (knock on wood).
Weren’t they bigly nerfed with their combos being dodgeable? Scab ragers got carapace body and still…
They paled in comparison to their pyjama rat cousins after that.
Dreg combo nerf last spring
Ragers combo is trash. Monks and Zerks in V2 have an opportunity windows for you to hit. They perform fast paced hits mixed with charged attacks wich has a readaable animations.
In DT you can’t even say if there is a combo or they spam one attack in vortex. So when you make them strong it’s unpleasant to even try fight them in melee.
Doesn’t matter how many times they get slowed down if it’s still too fast. As I said, the problem is with groups. Obviously, instead of slowing them down other avenues could be used - for example, lowering their attack trigger range (~8m) to the same as Scab Ragers (~3m) would help immensely, since right now it’s difficult to engage even with hit-and-run.
Though I feel like their attack speed is off at the moment, so I wouldn’t be surprised if Fatshark have stealthily buffed them in this update.
As for ‘addressing the player’s nerf first’ - it is a separate issue and as such should be considered separately in its own right, such things should only occassionaly be bundled together. Aside from that, I don’t see why we can’t have both?
That’s the point, in groups they have to be either staggered or shot (aside from OP things like Duelling Sword but it solves literally everything in this game at the moment so I don’t even bother bringing it up) in order to be safely gotten rid of - if that is not an option for whatever reason (eg. you’re saving your active in a clutch cause there’s a trapper running around), dealing with them becomes a chore.
If you are to melee a group of Dreg Ragers (purely melee) with eg. Sapper Shovel, Eviscerator or Thunder Hammer it’s supremely boring to do so in a safe manner where you don’t risk being mowed down the moment something goes wrong (eg. dodge stuck on prop). I don’t feel this to be engaging nor fun, which is a stark contrast to Vermintide 2 where every single normal horde/elite enemy could be dealt with safely in such a manner, even in large numbers - provided you had the skill and timing to go about it.
not every enemy needs a melee hard counter in my opinion and i say this with ragers being one of the most clutch enders i encountered.
totally unrelated but ages ago i asked various professionals (cops/army/etc) for their concept against knife attacks.
funniest came from infantry soldier:“we are a couple dudes with rifles, if one gets close enough to stab you, we all fkked up beyond belief”
so i accept the rager in this whole rock/paper/scissiors thing as a guaranteed chip damage if encountered in larger groups.
each weapon has its strengths and weaknesses, so no single weapon is effective against all enemies.
If you find Ragers to be a threat, try using the Catachan. With the latest update, the parry block duration has been significantly extended, allowing you to parry all of a Rager’s attacks without taking damage.
Similarly, the TH’s special hit now has reduced stagger time, allowing you to quickly transition to blocking after landing a hit, so this is no longer an issue either.
This game offers various defensive mechanics such as blocking, dodging, and follow-ups. Try experimenting and practicing on your own to improve your player skills.
There are at least three weapons like that off the top of my head - Plasma Gun, Voidblast Staff and Delver’s Pickaxe. Probably even more I can’t remember at the moment.
No, I find them annoying. Nothing in this game is a threat at the moment between the VoC spam, Assail spam, Duelling Sword and all the other overtuned choices people tend to run. As for Devil’s Claw, unless they changes something in the latest update it was only possible to facetank a group of ~4-5 Dreg Ragers with it since parry didn’t transition into block immediately. Given the patch notes for Nightmares & Visions I guess it might have been fixed since.
Obligatory “skill issue” comment, of course.
As fort the video you attached - any chance to see the Thunder Hammer one elsewhere? Seems there’s something wrong with it and I can’t render it on any of my browsers (says the codec is missing). I’d acknowledge your point if it showed that you were able to kill that many Dreg Ragers with a Thunder Hammer without using anything but the melee weapon and getting any chip damage, but I’m unable to confirm that was in fact the case. Does the video play as usual for you? If so, what browser are you using?
Agree and we have such enemies in the form of eg. Trappers, Flamers and Snipers which can be dealt with using melee just fine but are usually easier to get rid of using ranged options. However, every melee enemy needs to be this way since your melee weapon is the only thing you can rely on having always ready no matter the situation (aside from base mechanics like dodges, slides etc.) and those enemies generally pressure you into melee combat in the first place.
It worked like that in Vermintide 2 where you could reliably take on even 8-10 Plague Monks if you had the space and bode your time. Having this as an option is a pillar of fair melee combat, as encounters which are almost a guaranteed HP damage just become kind of an HP tax on the mission, which is not an endlessly renewable resource (aside from Zealot) the way it was in VT2.
for example on my way to havoc 40 and oggy revamp i’m trying new stuff.
special (punch) on krourk IV stuns em mid attack pretty much everytime.
ogryn though only has 2 fists and more than fingers on each as ragers incoming… not gonna add up, sah
maybe ragers as a concept went unbalanced cause fatshark went inflationary on numbers.
whereas 20 flamers at once would be a nice snack since you only can cover so much space with a flame streak,
20 hits from 20 ragers, that aint chippin, thats a whole woodchipper being thrown at ya
To be honest I feel like this state of Dreg Ragers is mostly acceptable because most players don’t have to deal with them in melee thanks to eg. Voice of Command, Smite and other such cruthes - and even when they do the Duelling Sword makes it bearable.
If all those overpowered things were nerfed to a point of being balanced, we’d have to confront Dreg Ragers in normal melee more often and IMO that would put the issue at display for the community. How are you gonna experience the pain of having to deal with it when even on Aurics there’s gonna be some Veteran knocking them down immediately with VoC, Ogryn blowing them apart with Rumbler or Psyker just keeping them still with Smite?
But those are separate issues which I believe deserve (and likely have) separate threads. This thread is for Dreg Ragers and as mentioned, in my opinion they deserve a tweak just as much as Voice of Command or Duelling Sword do and such a change shouldn’t be avoided simply because of the current metastate of the balance.
My Vet will unironically use Duelling Sword if it gets nerfed into a balanced state. Corporal Emiliani REALLY doesn’t want his sword arm to get flabby from relying on crutches.
If they toned down all the options to deal with them maybe could leave a gap in swing pattern similar to VT2 or a perfect block into push or attack to stagger.
But right now we have too many hammers and very few nails.
Best option you have if your weapon is not good at staggering is… dodge.
Dance with them, they are predictive. The problem is when the game throws 125 at you. And if it is good at staggering, then you have no real problem (HS MK VI for example, or even VII, Relic Blades all MKs, Cleaver on Ogryn, etc.).
Sure, Dreg Ragers are still one of the few threats that justify choices in my builds. Essentially, I evaluate a build based on four threats:
Against maniacs, but most specifically Dreg Ragers
Against carapace, but most specifically Crushers
Against hordes, meaning common enemies
Against elites
I always account for the first two in my builds. The last two are really close.
But with all the power we’ve got, you should be able to deal with them easily.
A weapon should not be able to deal with all situations.
