Pickpocket change is unfair to autopistols

I’ve finally gotten the courage to try my desperado build again, instead of pretending the pickpocket nerf never happened and, well, it’s not great if you use autopistols. Assuming you get ammo back that will last a few seconds. To top things off, there’s even fewer reasons to use the vulture’s keystone, as it’s best node, vulture’s dodge, requires you to pretty much shoot at all times to be useful.

My suggestion is to revert pickpoket changes, but make that talent part of the vulture’s keystone, so it’s not so easily available.

Another issue with it it’s that its effectiveness varies a ton based on the weapon: needle pistols gets a lot more out of it, thanks to their ammo efficiency. Autopistols not so much.

Another thing of note: Desperado should extend its duration on monster hits. This was already a problem, but it’s much more noticeable now, as your ult might be your only chance to use your ranged weapon for more than a few seconds (but it won’t allow you to shoot a monster basically)

If you are opposed to any or all of these changes you should significantly increase the amount of ammo autopistols have, and/or allow grenade hits to contribute to the ammo economy.

My favorite build with this class was autopistols/vulture/desperado, with blinders as a blitz. My entire playstyle was based around avoiding melee (to which end I carried the weakest but more available blinder grenades). That is entirely gone, and with it 90% of the enjoyment I got from the class.

i’ve been fine picking up ammo like every other class, the aura that shares ammo around is very effective with autopistols too so people can’t complain too much when i yoink a lot of it

honestly i’m having more fun than before, i was just falling asleep holding down primary fire before. i’m sure it was fun for some but there’s undeniably more depth to the gameplay now

My friend stopped playing the game because of this change :frowning: They were also only interested in full ranged build of Hive Scum, and the devs nerfed it after 6 months when most players already bought DLC…

Asking for Hive Scum buffs in the big 2026… :broken_heart:

CONDITIONAL Infinite Ammo isn’t enough? You want UNCONDITIONAL Infinite Ammo back?

Pre-nerf Pickpocket Hive Scum was “fun” to play for some, but being in the same Strike Team as one was actually MISERABLE. It was a TOXIC playstyle, just like pre-rework Stealth Zealot was. Fighting over the scraps of whatever they didn’t kill just wasn’t fun AT ALL.

Post-nerf Pickpocket actually requires you to do something beyond holding down LMB for the entire Mission and that’s GOOD for Team dynamics and general depth of the Class.

this is an important angle to game balance that gets glossed over often. it’s a multiplayer game, even if you like having a totally op build because it’s dumb fun, it can still be bad for the game because it takes fun away from the other people.
fatshark decided that the fun that person gains was overshadowed by the fun it takes away from other people, so it got a nerf, and i agree with this, i also could feel myself being the only person even engaging with the game when i played that build pre-nerf, everyone else had to be a side character playing walking sim.
so if someone quits because it gets nerfed that sucks but not everyone can be happy with everything.

I’m sorry if you’ve had bad experiences with it. Personally I’m way more annoyed at rumbler ogryns or rocket scum than I’ve ever been at desperadoes.

I’ve also made some suggestions on how they could balance it, because pickpocket isn’t needed at all with some weapons (needle for example) but it’s a staple, and not enough of one, for autopistols.

As for calling “depth” having to do a melee/ranged hybrid build, well, I’ve got 5 other characters (10 if you count VT) that do that. HS was fun for me because it provided this unique thing

My sweatlord compatriots will dislike me for saying it but I think OG pickpocket should be reworked as a node called Scrap Ammo and put into the Vultures Mark Keystone. It would debuff the user’s damage by 15% if they are using free ammo.

The reason I say this is simple:

  1. Players who wanted to shoot nothing but guns have lost a playstyle they loved. This should be returned to them.
  2. Players who want to play the game need to have their enemies not be instantly wiped by other players. So they would benefit from a conditional damage debuff on the all guns all the time playstyle.

This way all players win. I get to fight in melee, gun scum gets to shoot hordes.

It was almost as bad as Perilous Combustion Inferno staff is. Consider this, Perilous Combustion DoTs no longer apply to Elites/Specs only minor enemies, and Desperado gets locked behind Vulture’s Mark as: Killing an Elite or Specialist Enemy with a Ranged Attack while Ammo Reserve is below 20% will refill it to 20%. 10s Cooldown.

No instead they will buff inferno staff because this is fine nothing to see here

The issue is that 15% changes nothing, and anything higher would get instantly complained by the “forever ranged” playstyle players

I hate this analogy of “a playstyle forever lost” because it still exists, it’s called Helbore lasgun vet, it’s called Psyker with Scriers Gaze

If they want to play ranged 24/7 there are options to do so truly, Desperado Scum was so problematic because of pickpocket that even if you slap that 15% damage reduction it’s not gonna change anything about them not allowing you to play the game

I don’t wanna be rude, I don’t want you to take this as an attack, but everything else you said here is very, very wrong

2 full on mags for 1 melee kill on Auric/Havoc is essentially free and eternal

Vulture’s Dodge is still pretty much the best keystone modifier you can have for Dual Autopistols

Copy this build if you wanna shoot 95% of the time (Video included even during dumb dumb rotten armour which should make this feel useless)

Here’s a tip to maximize Pickpocket functionality that many do not know: Pickpocket only checks your reserve ammo, which means that if you only have a few bullets in reserve, reload them anyways so it’s emptied and you get max benefit when killing an elite/special on melee

I swear this build destroys, it’s mega degenerate and can net you >2 mill dmg in Havoc still lol

make it more like ~50% and i think it’d maybe be alright

Rampage and desperado are designed very backwards to me. Desperado, the shooty gun spam thing with little to no actual buff towards damage output, rewards players on a per-kill basis, while Rampage, the ability that allows you to reliably kill crushers in 3 swings with heavy sword, buffing cleave damage, rending, and causing a huge aoe stagger on end, is rewarded on a per-swing basis, which can also be buffed.

Rampage could definitely be nerfed in this regard, it’s already massively buffed by not having its downsides and its cooldown is not very long since you as scum have many ways to replenish it fast and by the time its over you’re probably taking time to go somewhere else anyway.

Desperado’s problem for me is that it doesn’t really reward much but it also doesn’t risk much. You take a fast shooting weapon and kill horde, it basically lasts forever. You take a weapon with long reload times, it just reloads the gun for you and you get your shots and that’s about it. Your only loss is that you don’t take rampage or stimm supply. Which last way longer, get more benefits, even replenish somewhat faster and are better placed on the talent tree to be honest.

I think rampage and desperado should both drain stamina overtime, but rampage restores stamina based on kills and increases stamina restored on taking damage, while desperado restores stamina based on where their shots land or how much damage dealt, i.e. landing a crit-headshot with a revolver on a crusher point-blank should restore more than blasting groaner legs 15 meters away with dual sub-machine guns.

Then, in addition to this change, Desperado should boost reload speed by two or three times, at the cost of stamina per reload. This would punish a spray and pray weapon like submachine guns plinking at carapace for no damage while giving a buff to weapons like revolver and shotgun that have notoriously long reloads but highly effective cleave and single target damage, and remain somewhat ineffective towards the in-between weapons, and ultimately kill a weapon like needle pistol in such a build, which does almost no damage per direct hit and has to reload very frequently.

Additional node ideas would have to be a tug of war between something extremely good for specific weapons, but you have to deal with stamina economy. An instant reload perk that drains even more stamina, like an additional 15-25%. Maybe a node where you can shoot at twice the speed, but you can’t ads and the recoil is increased while accuracy is decreased. An obvious reversal node you could pull out, just for fun, could make stamina no longer drain overtime, but drains on a per-shot/reload basis, and only giving you stamina back on kill.

This would, in theory, make infinite ammo builds more possible with more variety. I personally don’t care if there is a ramping drain on stamina or not, I feel like a player who is able to consistently hit headshots against approaching enemies from multiple directions at a very close distance should be able to keep this ability up as long as they can maintain that consistency. The only equilibrium I would want balance-wise is that revolvers and shotguns last much longer than submachine guns, but ultimately damage-wise both are relatively close together. This is most likely impossible, but nevertheless, make the guns that take the most effort last the longest.

I’m not sure what you are trying to say.

I am a “Desperado/Dual Stub/No Stimm Labs” Scum, and I rarely pick up ammo from the ground.

I use my Dual Stubs for at least 85-90% of my Auric Maelstrom runs.


I’m confused by this take because I shoot just as much with my Dual Stubs as I did before the nerf without Stimm Labs (never liked that crap mechanic).

Y’all can probably chill a bit with class balancing because with Fatshark’s track record; in four weeks we’ll receive the most broken class to date.

I welcome the feedback. But I haven’t got the skill to play HS on havoc 40, nor the desire to, considering lately my FPS have been reduced to ~30

On auric my experience differs considerably.

I’ve had a look at the build you provided, and I thank you for the thought, but it’s not something I’m looking forward to trying, admittedly mostly due to subjective pet peeves (just to mention one, I find the buff from a rocket to a nuke to be ludicrous)
I liked my smg nimble build, and having to rely on blinders to survive a lot more: sure, I had to rely on teammates for crushers, as my main option was just stunning them, but half the fun of it came from there.

Vraks (the old columnus) is one of my favorite weapons, but I don’t wanna use the same thing everywhere, I was happy about scum precisely because I found a novel combination of weapons/playstyle

As for other posters’ replies of “no problem with dual stub”, yeah, it’s one of my main points that the nerf affected different weapons differently

In the description of the build there’s also an alternative for dual autopistols instead of Vraks

No offense but that’s not at all the same play style. Close in ranged combat, like zealot but with guns, was the pitch.

This is not at all impossible to recreate without ruining the game and I can prove it pretty simply.

What is the TTK?

image

If the time to slay is too low - adjust it until its high enough not to steal everyone’s fun. Its literally that simple. Mind you we’re not even looking at the qualitative difference here between these outputs. Desperado I’m traversing a lot more terrain while doing this, relic blade I’m holding the line. I have better times on Piety and Martyrdom. In any case the specifics do not matter - the point is the same. If its killing enemies too fast then slow it down and it won’t be a problem. Because the goal, in my view, is to make sure one playstyle doesn’t rob fun from other players. Not to make everything evenly ‘effortful’.

Addendum:
Guns do not have infinite cleave. They are able to be balanced in a way that doesn’t remove fun.

Dual Stubs are not the same as dual autos. There was impacts on some weapons greater than others. I’ve been using dual stubs besides when I hard-cary pubs for most of my games on Scum and they are largely unaffected by this change as you say.

i think it’s very fair to say a playstyle was lost, but do we need to have playstyles that are anti-coop and anti-fun for the rest of the team?
is it possible to make a 100% run and gun all the time character that doesn’t either feel anemic and unfun, or ruins the fun for everyone else?

and even if its possible, is fatshark capable of making it happen on a class that shares multiclass weapons with other classes?

open ended questions btw. i think it’s probably possible but unlikely to happen. i’d rather it be not a playstyle than it be a playstyle and make me mad in pugs

I do get the point of “if it doesn’t steal everything then it’ll be fine” in which I do agree but should we really have a ranged (even if close range) playstyle that allows the user to never interact with the enemies at all?

This is what confuses me on why are people in favour of this, I’m not saying it needs to be melee, but if you can just shoot 24/7 while staying away from the reach of the enemies (which most of them will not catch you since everyone runs Nimble so you just dodge spam) as well as being immune to ranged enemies since Desperado mechanic, what’s the point of even playing the game??

It’s very similar to just Psyker inferno staff + Bubble + Empathic evasion, sure the nerfed version you propose will make sure it won’t be better than let’s say a Relic Blade charge Zealot, but it still promotes never interacting with the enemies essentially

Edit: also one of my personal problems with making this change with pickpocket is that it would ruin it for me. I like gaining ammo, I like my weapons to have full damage, I like needing to melee enemies to replenish it on a build that’s not focused to melee, it makes it a lot more exciting

I would add a cleave reduction as well. I am completely with you on wanting this change. I feel like infinite ammo should be tied intrinsically to large nerfs, and allow you to have two ranged weapons. Yeah, this may mean you have no melee at all and can’t block. That would be an interesting thing to try.