That’s not my argument at all. I’m not sure that you’ve read my past posts because you might be mistaking me for somebody else. I’m being critical of certain aspects of Ogryn nodes in comparison to other classes. I think you want to pick battles with random people & that’s fine you do whatever you want if that’s your thing. I have admitted that the update is okay, but I’m nowhere near calling it amazing as some people that are slobbering all over it are. I’m just not really convinced or moved by it is all. But hey, my mind can change for sure. We’ll have to wait & see playtesting is ourselves to determine.
“Massive” it’s a bit of a stretch here…
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What in particular? I think Ogryn has more damage% on the tree now than two other classes combined on average. Same with +impact% and cleave%. I think only a perilmaxxed psyker comes close to those. Same with DR values (and mostly full DR at that, not just toughness DR) and how free his toughness is now. Also as I said, only class to my knowledge that has +all toughness replenishment%, unless i’m forgetting about one.
If you’re talking about literally just bruiser and light em up then damn, that’s kinda minor in comparison to what he’s getting.
Nop. Ranged ogryn can literally get 90% increased ranged damage with decent uptime. The only stretching being done is pretending that a slight nerf to bruiser and a rescale to light em up are resulting in actual nerfs and not heavily outweighed by the extreme buffs anywhere else. It’s an odd thing to complain about two specific nodes being rebalanced to not be as extreme in niche situations anymore, but then ignoring the literal on average 40%+ damage, +25 toughness, +30% DR buff he gets on the tree alone for most builds. That’s BEFORE the changes to some of his weapons that double their headshot armor damage and much much more aswell.
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I’m going to try really hard not to be rude here, but read what I said again.
Here I’ve put the key word in bold to help you out.
Obviously bruiser was nerfed. The problem is extrapolating that into an overall nerf for the class, or statements like:
All but two guns using gunlugger talents are factually buffed with the tree changes. The ones that abused light em up well are still getting some pretty good compensation, maybe not enough, but there will demonstrably be more strong options to use with gunlugger after this patch. So yeah calling it a nerf should be self evidently untrue.
I’ve even added a part to the bottom to clarify about bruiser. I have no interest in opposing reasonable nerfs just because they’re not perfectly consistent across the board.
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That’s fine & everything. You just need to be way more specific or people will misinterpret your words like that. Since you added all that at the bottom later on, there’s no way I could’ve seen that with all these responses…
This made me think about the balance dynamics at play here and the fact they’re buffing the rippergun stab hard makes this probably actually as good as before. Plus you get batter, so batter stabbing a boss and shooting for bleed+fire stacks seems like it would probably be doing around the same damage, all other buffs considered. Also applies +15% from soften em up if you have it. Plus PBB gives 15% close range damage. Plus they’re giving it more impact + you will have +25% impact from slam so it’ll be back to consistently staggering crushers I think. For the melee variant of this, the rippergun jab will probably trigger both soften em up and the heavy-attacks-give-15% damage talent to give you 30% damage + change from heavy hitter.
I’m thinking with the rippergun buffs you’ll literally be chasing down big targets to jab them to pieces and shoot them apart.
I’m on kind of a tangent right here but my point is to demonstrate that the changes play together to actually create new viable playstyles which seems pretty well designed to me. Like if you think about it using a rippergun, a full auto shotgun, to run at stuff, stabbing it and shooting it… it seems very fitting and fun. It’s a bit sad people are reducing this whole design to “but 32 max stacks”. I think Fatshark does a lot of nonsensical design sometimes but this is the opposite of it and deserves credit
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I GOT IT
EVERYBODY LISTEN UP
I understand it i can end the thread
FS should have nerfed all cdr talents at the same time.
:eddie_murphy_headtap:
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Sure I posted in a rush I won’t lie. Just sick of seeing people take a fairly complex mix of changes, zoom in super hard on the few objective nerfs (all completely reasonable in both intent and severity) and extrapolate into doom posting.
You can indeed play the game well and effectively without spamming your Ult literally every ten seconds and I’m not gonna pretend otherwise.
Oh my imagine if all this bruiser whinging got them to nerf tactical awareness in the same patch. I will have my popcorn and heat shield ready for the Vet V Ogryn flame war.
I genuinely hope that happens, tactical awareness has it coming.
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Is this the same group of playtesters as the last time they reworked the Ogryn? because that group of playtesters is suspect.
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You act as if the play testers get everything they ask for. Fatshark is Impenetrable to us all brother, ask the people who play tested Sister of the Thorn in VT2 if that career released in a way they advocated for lmao.
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Possible, the actual uptime is still to be verified though, but that’s just one buff to the gunlugger tree, made less significant by the burn stacks nerfs, doesn’t matter how little you think it is.
And then?
Where the massive survivability?
Because now you don’t get netted during indomitable?
Or 25% toughness replenishment you get now from loyal protector? I feel invincible already…
Ogryn still have crap dodges an 0 s dodge linger time even if now you can step over a pox, one time before resetting counter probably.
And the extra utility? That actually got nerfed since the Ogryn abilities are his biggest form of utility. Ah no, now when I trigger lucky bullet I can give 15% extra damage to my allies, or I can choose to waste a point in For the Little UN’s. Massive!
Because that’s nothing new, that was possible even before.
Are you talking about those weapons that have still less finesse damage than most human weapons and don’t have access to blessings like uncanny strike, riposte, and precognition? Heretics beware god emperor has returned.
Let’s not beat the dog around the garden!
Ogryn power that was previously concentrated in only one thing is now fairly distributed across the talent tree, there’s now more build variety, and that’s good. But saying that he got massively buffed it’s pure delusion.
@Hank_jw as a long time Ogryn main and the only person in this thread who has actually played with the changes, is “massively buffed” inaccurate? “Significantly buffed” maybe? Or would you say “somewhat buffed”?
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My money is on somewhat buffed.
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I’d mostly point at a couple different things:
- Ogryn now has 25 more base toughness and the nodes on the tree have been rolled together to make it easier for most ogryn builds to hit 125/140 toughness with just a 2/3 point investment, 2 of which are arguably free just from pathing, 3 on some builds
- Ogryn now has 5% more base DR, aswell as nodes for 15% DR, 20% DR, 10% DR, 20% DR (total 70% DR) that he did not have before and he can all take. They all have easy activation conditions. These all affect health damage taken on Ogryn, of which he has a LOT.
- There are also new toughness damage reduction nodes, like on heavy hitter for 12% TDR, or when an ally gets his toughness broken for 25% TDR, and another 15% TDR for allies taking toughness damage.
- He gets an additional 10% attackspeed, which I consider a defensive benefit
- He gets an additional up to 125% stagger, which is a HUGE defensive benefit. The 25% stagger any build gets with slam now is already huge, the heavy hitter node is absurdly big.
- All his “Toughness Replenishment” now actually affects Toughness Replenishment, meaning he can have to +65% toughness gen from all sources, which is absolutely massive and exponentially scales all benefits mentioned here.
- Taunt can now give a lot of toughness.
- Charge now counts as dodging, meaning you can charge gunners more safely and not get netted
- He can now stagger small enemies by dodging and no longer gets stuck on them
I hope I’ve made my point. And this is just defenses.
As for extra utility, I’d point out he now has talents that actually make BLO work on all ranged weapons, aswell as stuff like a perfect block mechanic to eat overheads and not take damage (and get a fat damage buff in return, too), he has a brittleness on push talent now which is actually quite big (10% per push) and his rock now actually whips out far faster and self-regens.
COMPARED TO BEFORE, silly. That’s what he gets ONTOP of what he had before. Even more as I just outlined.
What is actually pure delusion is looking at these actual numbers and still saying it’s not a massive buff
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I’d like to remind you that this is effectively now on a near 30s perma-cooldown, give with one hand, Rick James 5 finger slap with the other in this case and possibly others. This is a big loss to mobility and of my my main concerns, though I admit I didn’t look at it too deeply because I’m rather apprehensive about the whole thing from the initial intention, design, the testing and feedback loop etc.
I’d like to be proven wrong.
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There’s a problem here though, it’s a far cry from perfect parity or even resembling the recent Zealot CDR change.
For starters the numbers are different, zealot is 200% for 4s and ogryn is 100% for 3s? Bruisers is also 3-4 nodes away, god enough nodes mostly but still. Never mind vet’s CDR for now.
But Zealot can control their own CDR better even with non crit weapons and is a self-starter, works on bosses, trash, every mob, has 2x uses etc., and OFC Zealot has the innate bonuses to dodges and slides and overall mobility.
It seems like a half-baked copy and someone mistyped a number.
Seems the least they could do is give a 2x ult option to ogryn like zealot has then, given slides and dodges work differently. Is the overall new TDR enough to compensate loss of mobility and facetank to close the gap when on CD?
100% CDR for 3s seems really anemic, it seems like a worse feast-or-famine now.
Same for Taunt, yeah it can give a lot of toughness but on a long CD with no meaningful CDR uness you give up team-wide dmg debuff for stagger CDR. How does new bruiser workout in the long run for Taunt and PBB?
It reminds me of the first (and second?) Ironbreak taunt ult on a way too long CD timer.
LOL by Sigmar’s Beard, that was like 4 duelling swords just for SoTT, I for one didn’t touch her till she was nerfed.
risk averse? some of them peeps couldnt tie their shoelaces if it wasnt for books and bubbles and the mode literally forcing you to babysit at every turn.
yeah, could say havoc is more “tactical” (for all the wrong reasons) but them being at risk is a huge % attributed to lack of physical skill just as the fundamentals (getting down a list of enemies to take out by priority at the time of their spawn and “peel that onion”)
ive seen gamepad tank controls being dragged along(cause “talents”) whereas much better skilled players that could actually do the job fighting and with “grace” warm the bench cause “risk”
and thats the point why i dont care much about havoc.
i’m no “bittsteller”, i’m busting my ass to be the best ogryn i can be with what i got right now.
seeing zealots and psykers noping out, i had carried through HISTG and maelstrom at one point, nu-uh… snivelers
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Is Bruiser not accessible to this build anymore or are we just pretending it isn’t still going to massively reduce your cooldown? Kill 3 elites over the course of 20 seconds and you’ve already knocked 30% of the cooldown off.
It’s almost like my exact wording was that there wasn’t parity, but that shouldn’t obstruct positive balance changes. Are you expecting me to tell you with a straight face that I don’t want IoD yeeted into the sun???
IoD, Pious Back Stab, Tactical Awareness, and Psykinetic Aura are all well in line for HEAVY nerfs. Kick em in the teeth, what they’re doing to Bruiser is a fantastic start and a good balance point moving forwards. Best case you halve your cooldown but you’re unlikely to actually reach that efficiency. That is plenty strong for a talent point and I think it would be insane to suggest it isn’t.
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Depends on the build.
If you take the peak power level of the strongest melee build of current Ogryn, who already has one of the best Havoc 40 winrates in the game, then he is “significantly buffed”, mostly through the new Barge passive, being invulnerable during Indomitable charge, being able to charging heavies while sprinting with No Stopping Me!, superior upgrade nodes for Heavy Hitter/massive buffs to Feel No Pain, and the new attack speed node (a disproportionately powerful stat on Ogryn). But this build was already hot on the heels of the strongest Zealot crutches, so…
If you look at Gunlugger, he gave up one thing (Monstrosity DPS with Burn) to gain improved stacking rate against every other enemy, buffs to Hail of Fire, gigantic buffs to Burst Limiter Override, and minor buffs to Pacemaker, Massacre and Unstoppable Momentum. I would also say that lands us at “significantly buffed”.
As for every other build, they are “massively” buffed, to the point that entirely new viable ways to play have emerged.
- He gains major buffs to the Demogryn builds with Burn on explosions and guaranteed free shots to supercharge the Rumbler and (buffed) Grenadier Gauntlet.
- Bull Butcher is back from the dead with Toughness gen, Bleed and HH stacks on light attacks.
- Stay Close, Feel No Pain and Loyal Protector buffs provide absolutely unreal staying power to straight taunt and tank builds.
- New talents like Brutish Strength, reworked Hard Knocks and the Stamina replenish from Slam combine with No Pushover to make supercharged Pushes.
- His TDR white nodes have mostly been replaced by blue talents that provide conditional, but global DR, for both Toughness and HP.
I ran out of time to type more but you get the idea.
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No no, I’m aware of your stance of too much CDR and in most cases I’d agree (vet). It’s what an ult is, I’d rather have an ult that’s not super duper OP or longer lasting but maybe can be used a bit more frequently.
If CDR is too fast people spam it without thought like a good player with OPAF VoC (side note: most ppl sit on ults like it costs them IRL $).
Too low CDR and people never use them as it’s always “saved for later”, and that makes for more static gameplay and an overall worse experience IMHO.
Part of the ogryn fun and a good skill to hone was assessing the situation, deciding where to charge and how far and farm back CDR to get back to group or reposition self to cover or teammate needing assistance etc. It was a rather thematic and partially unique ogryn thing that made up for crappy mobility, dodges and slides. Bull in a china shop charging your way through stuff felt great, and make said assessments rewarding.
Ever seen an ogryn without bruiser? It’s ALWAYS in their back pocket, maybe they ult when I wasn’t around. Hel, wev’e seen high true level vids here with nary an ult to be seen where it would have cut down on a lot of dmg taken etc. I’ve seen so many games where people were allergic to the F key, and it would have saved them from silly damage taken and going down etc. It’s similar to taking revive shouts and never ulting.
As I’ve said in the past, I’d look into reducing vet shout duration to 10s instead of massively reducing CDR. Same for ogryn charge I might have foregone the dodge state for more uptime, but TBH it could probably have always used it.
As I’ve also said in the past this affects the lower diffs more due to lesser elites too, as it would for Vet CDR.
It’s a fine balancing act, not FS’s strong suit to be sure, too few ults is as bad as too many overall for the game. If people can’t remember to hit the F key that’s on them, I don’t want to be one of them.
Yes I understood your exact wording this time and the dozens of times of CDR mentions in the past.
My point was in true FS fashion, the pendulum seems to have swung hard in the other direction for some stuff. Maybe I’m wrong, I hope I am.
And these changes are likely to be set in stone for 4-6 months, closer to 6 given they couldn’t freaking add 2 measly GD Lua lines to weapon templates they broke.
The FS magic trick of overbuff and overnerf is tiring, yet somehow Ogryn bore the Brunt of it.
Death of a hundred paper cuts led to this situation in the first place and band-aids came after oggie almost bled out.
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