Most of the melee balance problems are about horde clear

[Garfielf]

For what lore reason does Hulkhands McMike the Ogryn magically stop doing damage on the fourth guy he cleaves in a row with his human-sized shovel.

[Mayson]

@joaquox

@Aufgebracht

Let’s face it: our melee choices are poorly balanced around horde clear. The top tier weapons are almost universally excellent at horde clear and generally the lower the horde performance the worse the weapon is.

You’re oversimplifying this.

PS, Brutal momentum & flamer do/did not only have great horde clear, but are/were great VS armor as well. Having a weapon that’s excellent against everything, while also requiring little or no skill to use, is the problem.

That’s not even true. Brutal Momentum does absolutely nothing for armor. It increases the amount of enemies hit by your attack, without making them eat more damage.
And you still need to land all the headshots to keep it up and make use of it.

[dannylew8299]

@Garfielf

For what lore reason does Hulkhands McMike the Ogryn magically stop doing damage on the fourth guy he cleaves in a row with his human-sized shovel.

Multiple people worked on weapons with no communication and conflicting vision, probably -_-

[Reginald]

Maybe the second and third guy he hit with it got stuck on it and now he’s swinging a human sized shovel and two humans at the last guy.

I hate how weak the ogryn’s melee weapons are

@dannylew8299

Multiple people worked on weapons with no communication and conflicting vision, probably -_-

Ranged weapons don’t have nearly this problem though. So it seems kinda strange.

[dannylew8299]

I’m just tossing ye old slander.

A vision about how guns should be seems pretty consistent and it shows. The guns are good, the buffs to them were good. Really.

[Jonboy]

This is only my opinion and I don’t lay it here as fact: but I still think the flamer is the best ranged option entirely because of its horde clear, and I don’t use it with the ult.

Special gauntlets become at lot easier for all the team when you’re not also being trash mobbed.

And again, just my experience, but even as a t5 regular I still end up taking some chip damage in a horde fight. There’s always some trash mob behind you taking a cheap swing, even if you’re backed into a corner! Somehow they squeeze through or roll under your feet or something

So to your melee point; yes, I agree. Horde clear speed > elites damage imo on melee. Elites are fairly easy to dodge if you’ve some space, and you can shoot down specials when not frantically fending off a melee horde.

[Rainman]

Making stamina regen while dodging would eliminate a lot of horde management issues.

[Rainman]

@Mayson

Brutal Momentum does absolutely nothing for armor. It increases the amount of enemies hit by your attack, without making them eat more damage.

That’s already been disproven by the devs. Brutal momentum doesn’t increase the amount of enemies damaged. That’s a set cap per-weapon. A thunder hammer will never be able to damage more than 3 mobs, no matter how much bonus cleave or power you throw at it. The amount of enemies “hit” in total doesn’t directly correlate with amount that are damaged when taking into account blessings that affect cleave. Stagger, on the other hand, also has a cap, but also has a minimum, so a blessing like brutal momentum can take advantage of the minimum stagger value on a hit and interrupt non-elite mobs, but do no damage or “impact” (their word for stagger value).

edit- i think i misread what you said. I read the “without” as “with”

[Nish]

@Rainman

That’s already been disproven by the devs. Brutal momentum doesn’t increase the amount of enemies damaged. That’s a set cap per-weapon. A thunder hammer will never be able to damage more than 3 mobs, no matter how much bonus cleave or power you throw at it. The amount of enemies “hit” in total doesn’t directly correlate with amount that are damaged when taking into account blessings that affect cleave.

The only problem with this is… Caxe and Taxe lights afaik don’t have any cleave damage cap at all. BM for this reason vastly increases the enemies damaged by the user’s attack.

[zaygr]

Hidden or obsfucated stats, mechanics and caps like “damage cleave”, “stagger cleave”, “slide and sprint damage reduction/penalty” makes it really annoying to learn a game. Doubly so when it’s on purpose.

[Mayson]

@Rainman

@Mayson

Brutal Momentum does absolutely nothing for armor. It increases the amount of enemies hit by your attack, without making them eat more damage.

That’s already been disproven by the devs. Brutal momentum doesn’t increase the amount of enemies damaged. That’s a set cap per-weapon. A thunder hammer will never be able to damage more than 3 mobs, no matter how much bonus cleave or power you throw at it. The amount of enemies “hit” in total doesn’t directly correlate with amount that are damaged when taking into account blessings that affect cleave. Stagger, on the other hand, also has a cap, but also has a minimum, so a blessing like brutal momentum can take advantage of the minimum stagger value on a hit and interrupt non-elite mobs, but do no damage or “impact” (their word for stagger value).

Except that’s what I just said.
I said WITHOUT making them eat more damage. As in, it doesn’t do that.

All this skimming over text makes people really sloppy with their reading. It’s the funniest thing. Then, the harsh white text on black background really doesn’t help here lol.

[Rainman]

yah i made an edit. misread

[Mayson]

Yeah, I thought so.

@zaygr

Hidden or obsfucated stats, mechanics and caps like “damage cleave”, “stagger cleave”, “slide and sprint damage reduction/penalty” makes it really annoying to learn a game. Doubly so when it’s on purpose.

The tide games are generally filled with stuff like that. Vermintide 2 was worse about it, if you can believe that. Power caps and damage caps and stuff not stacking and such, so there was no point in being creative with the combinations of equipment.

Glad it’s a little more loose here, which is why I specifically don’t want all these fun combos nerfed. It will just end up like Vermintide where everything has one strict use case and that’s that.

[Rainman]

I think I read that the tac axe doesn’t have a cap on its lights, but I’m not sure about the combat axes. I’m ok with the tactical axe not having a cap though, considering most of their light attack patterns aren’t sweeping and won’t likely hit more than a few mobs at a time anyways.

That, and what matters more is the onehit kill, less-so: cleave. That’s why most people complained about the power sword, not because it could damage so many mobs, but it did a high enough amount of damage to onehit multiple mobs each swing. If it only killed one mob per swing, it wouldn’t be much different from a thunder hammer or axe with brutal momentum.