Moonfire Bow is Overpowered

Please stop posting if you’re going to post like this. It does absolutely nothing but waste everyones time (including yours) by spamming the thread with nonsensical statements.

You’ve been presented with a whole bunch of arguments as to why the weapon is overpowered (most of which you’ve deflected or ignored), to turn around and go “UHHHH ACTUALLY POOR BALANCE DOESN’T EVEN EXIST UNLESS YOU’RE A DEV” is just stupid. I don’t really care if that’s against forum rules, but it’s absolutely how you’re acting right now, and I refuse to believe you’re not doing it on purpose.

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I’m a person of certain, lets say, Eastern European upbringing, I’ve been always taught to lead by example. If @swpz thinks talking about balance is moot since none of us is a developer, then I expect him to either prove that he is a developer or lead by example and stop talking about balance.
Cannot really muzzle people like that.

Also again, having all the data does not equal arriving at optimal conclusions. To prove that, I, unlike @swpz, can indicate that the developers had all the data from the start, however they did a lot of balance changes throughout the course of the game’s life cycle, including a couple of big bunches of those.
That is obvious to me since I know that the developers are human beings, and that the nature of the problem of balancing a game is non-trivial itself. Alas, apparently it can be something that requires an explicit explanation.

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It’s been conversing with an echo chamber. We do find the number of people piling on to be interesting though, it really goes to show how having an opinion contrary to the crowd results in a pile in. There is no conversation to be had in good faith when the only one that had promise (the damage numbers one) had its goal posts changed (but “area damage” when we observe that the OP of this topic was discussing single per shot damage) when we observed that everything was rough parity.

Unless you’re interested in having an actual discussion along those lines, it’s better to agree to disagree.

@OrsonMaxwell

None of us are developers so making claims that things are not balanced is moot. We do not have the data. That’s all there is to it. This entire conversation which has drawn in more and more people can be loosely summarized as “group advocating for a change that benefits its supporters disagrees with dissenting opinion that not everyone would benefit”.

Same old story - your summary is factually untrue. Not everyone here says that this change is beneficial to everyone.

Good thing you reel those read counts in by bravely opposing the majority. Doesn’t matter in the least that you ignore each and every correctly phrased argument or question and spread misquoting and factually untrue statements in the process.

Well apparently 264 posts in this discussion alone hints that there isn’t.

ADDED:
Oh yeah, this whole thing about expecting DLC weapons not changing etc. Can this be really interpreted in any funny way?

8. Patches, Updates and Changes
You acknowledge and accept that from time to time, Fatshark may patch or update the Game for any purpose, including but not limited to resolving software bugs or other issues, rebalancing the Game or adding and/or removing features in the Game.

(c) Vermintide 2 EULA

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See, this is the reason why the conversation is going nowhere. People bring arguments up, and you immediately deflect them in nonsense ways. How do area damage and single shot damage contradict? Can a single shot not do aoe? Should we be judging coruscation staff by its single target damage?

You also didn’t even apply this rule to your own arguments, instead going on some weird DPS vs a single dummy in the keep tangent.

Then, when someone else brought up numbers that showed how hilariously off yours were, you just ignored what they said, and tried to criticise them for not including a specific trait (that they did include), despite the fact that your original claim ignored literally everything about the gear except single target damage per second. When that was pointed out, you stopped replying.

The OP was also comparing breakpoints, something which you completely ignored as far as I can tell? In fact you seem to have ignored literally every single point that wasn’t convenient for your arguments, leading to this whole discussion just being you wasting a heap of time arguing about nothing.

Not going to waste any more of my time dealing with you finding new and inventive ways to go “nuh-uh”, fairly sure any reasonable person can see moonbow is OP.

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Sorry just stumbled upon this gem. Conversely: if a nerf makes one person lose only to make another one win, why do you claim that this change is inherently problematic? I see a perfect zero sum there, so why not nerf Moonfire Bow in the end?

@all Also, mates, I think this whole portion of the discussion went off the rails of reality a bit, and I see it in a number of people’s posts (except the excellent post by @FrivolousWizard there).
Literally this: voicing a balance opinion on these forums is impacting how other people play the game. If you squint a little, you will quickly come to the conclusion that it doesn’t. Posts on forums and in-game numbers are separate entities, so I don’t think this one should’ve had this much attention in the first place which in turn could’ve cut down on troll food.

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I will at least give you credit for not making morbid assumptions about my motivation this time.

This is a self defeating argument. Neither you nor I have the data on how many people like or dislike something like Moonbow. Assuming a zero sum game assumes an equal number of people for and against. We simply have no idea what those numbers actually are. This is a forum largely for giving feedback. Everyone in this thread may have disagreed with you, but nobody has accused you of being selfish or unreasonable just for the act of coming here and giving your feedback. This is what I find to be the extremely bad faith part of your argument, telling people that their extensive experience and subsequent feedback shouldn’t be given in the first place, because it may negatively impact some of the playerbase, and this all seems to come from the view point that nerfs are intrinsically bad, or that the only entity capable of judging balance is the developer themself. Of course they make the final call, but if the input of individual players isn’t actually worth anything, why do these forums exist? Why did they nerf Radiant Inheritance when there was public outcry about it? Why did it need to be nerfed at all if Fatshark are the ultimate guide on balance? In that case they surely wouldn’t have gotten that talent so horribly wrong in the first place. Why did they decide to adopt a weapon balance mod that included a mix of buffs and nerfs? Dare I suggest because the opinions of extremely dedicated members of the community who have a very intimate understanding of the game’s mechanics are, in fact, actually valuable to them, even when the result is a nerf.

Is this referring to the WoM release? I’ve been playing since pre release beta and I can only assume that’s the period of time you’re referring to. WoM was a mess for a lot of reasons, but it’s worth remembering that amongst the rebalancing was also an absolute onslaught of reintroduced and new bugs that went a long way to shattering a sense of fairness in how the game played at that point, and really dilutes the question is whether or not the increased difficulty was the main issue. Believe me, I was right there along with many others complaining about a lot of things that went down then. The part about this I find hard to swallow though is the idea that losing a game is intrinsically a waste of time. If you always have to win to enjoy yourself, do you actually enjoy playing the game, or just enjoy the dopamine rush of the victory screen? For all the issues with WoM, realising how reliant I’d become on how exceptionally strong dodge dancing was previously, and actually taking the time to learn core mechanics better was one of the better times I’ve had with the game… at least once a lot of the bugs had been ironed out. It’s also worth remembering that knee jerk reactions are not always correct, and that people broadly dislike change, but that may or may not stick when given time to adapt.

This is the other main point I really take issue with. Since you seem to acknowledge that players do in fact have some right to be challenged by the highest official difficulty, then the only follow up to that is to try to then further increase the difficulty of Cataclysm. That is an incredibly naive approach to balance that ignores the myriad of problems faced when actually trying to increase difficulty in a fun way. Increasing density/enemy numbers is just a recipe to destroy performance for a lot of people. Now if FS released a patch that upped enemy density on your preferred difficulty to the point your system that was originally above advertised minimum specs now runs the game like a slide show, then you might actually have a reason to want a refund. Similarly upping enemy health further and further just ends up going in the direction of sponginess, which nobody finds particularly fun and actively kills the pace of the game.

So when we have a situation like currently, where the majority of weapons perform fine, or some even badly on higher difficulties, but a handful trivialise that content for the players who actually play that difficulty, instead of addressing that handful of overperformers, you think it would instead be better for FS to do 10x the amount of work to bring everything else up to that level, and then try to find a way to further increase difficulty in a way that doesn’t blow up peoples’ PCs or fundamentally kill all pacing (one of the major complaints about the original state of the WoM update no less). This makes no sense as an approach to balance, and would most certainly lead to a messier, more poorly balanced overall state of the game. If you buff everything else then try to make the difficulty somehow keep up, you’re essentially throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and restarting the whole painstaking process of trying to achieve some semblance of weapon parity. I’m sorry, but that is a completely nonsensical approach to balance.

Or alternatively you don’t think dedicated players deserve to have the highest official difficulty option be reasonably challenging, and you’re actually just suggesting a blanket buff to everything that isn’t Moonbow/SotT levels with no follow up in which case… well you’re still telling FS to do multiple times the work needed to achieve balance, but you’re also ruining Cataclysm difficulty at the same time. Which would be one hell of a suggestion, I have to say.

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My brain reading this thread.

vogon

It’s worse than Vogon Poetry.

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I got this funny feeling it was a mistake to say anything at all, the whole topic is a landmine :fearful:

Even if that meant i shoulda keep quiet in response to a statement going “moonfire has a 5 seconds downtime per 700 damage dealt single target”.

Its blown up in a bad way :sweat_smile:

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I mean old mate is clearly trolling so it’s whatever

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That’s my face when a SoTT in QP blows up the monster, in general has the most damage, gets up to the Horn of Magnus, rest of us die to monk rush, she refuses to revive me or the other players, tries to solo the game, and dies to a lone gun rat less than ~30 seconds later. Yes, that was an actual experience I had.

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Is it weird that i suspect myself as the troll here? Everyone be like “moonfire easily best 4 all” and i am just sitting here like “hagbane stalker better”

I refuse to believe i am the only one to have seen the waystalkers running that and just killing absolutely everything leaving only scraps for everyone else in a fashion that would make pre nerf battlewiz proud.

And yet we get all these examples of “moonfire better” and i am doubting my sanity.

Err, as illustrating a picture as that is in regards to describing your feeling on their difference in performance i find myself unable to certainly gauge which one of the two you would put as the stronger one :sweat_smile:

Thus i ask for a clarification, although i presently suspect we have a shared view on the matter.

Hagstalker and moonfire-anything aren’t in the same ballpark. They aren’t in the same continent. Frankly, they aren’t even in the same universe.

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Nah, Hagbane Waystalker is incredible.

Really, it feels like all Elf weapons are tuned/overtuned for Waystalker and it’s simply a fact that all non-waystalker classes are balanced around not being able to generate the ammo to use them the way Waystalker does. Except that Moonbow/Javelin exist with infinite ammo.

Personally I don’t see what the hullabaloo is over SotT when Shade similarly deletes bosses and patrols with ults that are even quicker to recharge, has better THP and survivability, and similar/better melee damage. SotT’s main gimmick is boosting healing for the whole team and her staff. Having switched between both classes a few times they end up with very similar playstyles.

nah I meant the person who thinks keep dummies are the only method of testing, refers to EU laws that don’t exist and also keeps referring to themselves in plural(?) for w/e reason

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It’s not an insane take. But I ran them back to back on Cata the other day to test it out and there is very little, if any difference. I thought moonbow was better tbh. Not enough density in Cata to make hagbane really outwork moonbow. I guess it depends on your pacing though.

Edit: I think a lot of it has to do with bugged ult atm though. Double shotted loaded bow pretty much clears an entire wave of horde on Cata which makes having to hold ult for ammo on hagstalker a pretty big setback.

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To be fair here, SoT with bloodrazor may not instawipe patrol in just one cast normally but having the possibility baked in as long as the patrols can be baited into stacking via climbing or such, which they often do while walking around, makes her pretty powerful, or even overly so.

Shade can match it with a good cloak of mist stabbing spree but i honestly think it´s harder to pull off, and she wont do both amazing boss damage and elite killing sprees with just one cloak. Not without potions anyway.

Going back to my math in 245:

A Waystalker with 75% damage uptime (such as expertly using Kurnous’ Reward) is going to have an expected combat proficiency of:

75% Hagbane: 3130.
50% Hagbane: 1636.
MFB on any Elf: 2623.

Factoring other things, such as combat against SV or bloodshot, can change these numbers. But based on this example of mixed special sniping and blasting chaos hordes the variance of a good waystalker almost doubled the effectiveness of Hagbane. I think this might be the cause for why some players view Hagbane as significantly weaker, and others as view Hagbane as a powerhouse over MFB.

Uhh that seems like pretty niche information. If you don’t factor in elites, double shotted, talent choices, melee weapon damage, etc then the information isn’t very relative to actual gameplay.

Personally I run dual daggers w/10% attack speed and 10% cooldown reduction (which I assume is fairly normal outside of the dual daggers). I’ve checked with a stopwatch and ults recharge in less than 12 seconds including the 4s that Cloak of Mist lasts, for over 33% uptime. I barely even care about potions. In any situation where a boss or patrol is a problem it’s almost always going to be in combination with a horde so taking some time off to safely mow down the horde and clear room for other characters isn’t a bad thing, and if you only delete half of the patrol or boss’s HP bar in one ult then that’s fine.

In my experience I just prefer the amazing survivability (constant cloaking) disruption (watch the AIs hesitate constantly while switching targets between you and the team while you cloak and uncloak) and THP (crit THP has insane synergy with cloak of mists). Ulting also lets you get off a safe moonbow shot where SotT wouldn’t be able to and you don’t even “lose” anything nowadays since the first hit doesn’t crit.

SotT is good don’t get me wrong but I think people talking about it like it’s the most overpowered thing in the game are falling into recency bias since SotT was introduce in the same patch that Shade received a slight nerf. But IMO the main reason to pick SotT is the +25% all team healing effect, which is great but is a team buff. People complaining about SotTs being able to easily solo maps aren’t realizing that the same players probably could do very similar things on Shade, and the SotTs who try and fail to solo when a single assassin gets them could have survived with Shade.