Moonfire Adjustment Suggestions

hmm why too niche? You can be as efficient as every other build in cata not only in this particular situation. And why should every range weapon been balanced around sniping or doing aoe? sure they will all rival longbow and hagbane? If there is another playstyle as well why not offer a weapon for this? You dont have to pick every weapon. I am a bit tired that eveyone is arguing about sniping potential.

I guess he had those situations with the handmaiden on Deathwish C3 Onslaught plus duo, and i had these on my cata + more horde + more specials run as duo. It is doable and you dont have to kill every special on sight, you can let stormers/ratlings alive and play around them because they can help you with horde clear. Just have a good sense which specials you need to kill.


There are already good options for range sniping weapons why you want more?

As efficient? Longbow/javs can kill every special/elite in sight with no downtime for skilled use, moonbow averages 4-6 kills (only specials) every 20 seconds during high use due to having hardcoded limits to how much one can shoot at a time. These are not comparable.

I’ve had it too and i disagree, one stormer, or any special really depending on circumstance, that slips the net can end a run depending on which situation. This for base cata.

Its not that i want more special sniping weapons, the argument is that moonbow still mostly acts like a discount longbow/javelin for people with poor aim and that´s why it has to be changed. A bit of extra dodge&stamina and/or an extra shot wont change that. Its especially visible below cata.

Yes some highly skilled users CAN use it as sort of an elf BoP for high pressure cata to deal with a very few distant or uncovered nearby targets in a hurry, this is not a valid reason to keep it however as it remains bad everywhere else. A miserable state all in all.

Game really should not be balanced around the 10-15% playing cata or the % of cata players who also play modded. ← This was the reasoning behind javelins being changed and its not wrong.

Sure less downtime between killing horde minions and elites increases your overall damage output also the elf melee weapons are one of the best. Therefore your overall efficiency increases. Taking into acount account that it has some downsides as sniping weapon i would say overall effiency (melee + range) is on par

only if you play it like a discount longbow :slight_smile:

If neck-deep in a horde, sure you are better of running melee and shooting as little as possible, which i find to a curious statement from you who claimed to like shooting elites in melee range before, given you do more damage by just staying melee unless looking to maintain hunter. Takes less time to just activate blur on shade and kill the 3 stormvermin than to blur-shoot-shoot-switch&block- blur and so on.

But anyhow, point in case being that if you are fighting ambients or watching a horde approach, either other weapon is pretty much always better. And this takes up far too much of time in general making the efficiency calculation be extremely biased towards longbow/javs unless playing modded/twitch or wastes.

That´s not a question of playstyle, it´s a question of what the game is normally, especially for base cata and down. The opposite being true upwards is not a valid reason for keeping it.


Additionally, small peeve of mine but, Elf weapons, or like mostly just SnD really, can be really good, but other characters have careers that often elevate one or several weapons to be on par or even superior, especially compared to other elf weapons. So i do not think that the idea about “elf weapons opop” really carries any weight. Since in practice, many users outperform.

That´s a thing, 90%+ of the playerbase cant use it any other way right now and that’d be why it is bad.

I did a Dual Daggers Deathwish Cata 1 true solo with Moonfire on Athel Yenlui (Official balance, no Tourney Balance). 57 specials and 72 ranged kills in 25 minutes. There were more ranged kills with Moonfire, but the game doesn’t count dot damage kills as ranged kills. I had also not used Moonfire a single time after it had nerfed, so I didn’t know its breakpoints or how many shots it could fire.

I can do it again if need be.
2:12 is a good example of where reduced aim-punch would give it an edge over elf Longbow. The energy economy is adequate for Cata, which has little to do with my experience given how often I miss a headshot and bodyshot instead with it in the run, and for DWONSC3Plus. I wouldn’t be able to say the same thing for Swift Bow even on Legend.

Javelin is slow. Elf Longbow leans toward tunnel vision and is slightly slower than Moonfire Bow.

For what it’s worth, I consider Twitch mode a non-factor in balance discussions. 5 stormers isn’t a thing even on Dutch. Hell, I don’t think it can happen even in Daredevil.

WHC needs a 40% ranged headshot percent to make CS better than Scrounger—more if taking Wild Fervour. I can’t recommend it.

I don’t follow the remainder of that paragraph. Could you elaborate on what you mean?

That’s true for all of them save possibly Hagbane, which I’ll admit I have little experience with.

Every elite is hyperbole. Elf Longbow is inefficient against Maulers. Moonfire does more damage to Maulers on bodyshot than elf Longbow does to them on bodyshot or headshot. (Elf Longbow’s Mauler headshot damage is less than its Mauler bodyshot damage).

I suspect Moonfire will be 1 shotting SV below Cata. I further doubt a player has to deal with more than 2 SV in a horde on that difficulty the vast majority of the time. Unless they shoot at the sky or speedrun the map and get stuck at a boss wall, Moonfire should have more than enough energy and damage for difficulties below Cata. For the first time in a long time, I’ll let someone else check the numbers. I’ve more than earned a break from it.

I’ll be unable to reply till much later. Need to sleep.


And a mostly sparklingly clean run it was, a mauler was nice to push rather than hit during the ravine in the start section and at least one cliff bravely tested before the ruins but mostly just clean.

From where i sit though, about half or more of the specials were killed in melee range or avoided using Handmaiden´s mobility&ability. Shade might replicate this to some extent but i do not think WS or SoT could. And you pointedly did not shoot the most elites either, except one or two just past hordes and walking a bit here and there.

I think it’s an open secret that Swiftbow is balanced around WS who can double tap any cata special except banners if memory serves, good enough for her though i do find it a bit dismal for it to be so. Why have so many options on several careers when only 1 can use most of them and that career has one weapon build that stands out far above the rest?

Fair, but getting one/two stormers, two assassins, a leech and fire&gunrats isnt something strange, no? And while its typically not the responsibility of just one to shoot it all, if the user themselves also want to shoot elites or even just ambients then ammo ends up short. This is a point of…well, user enjoyment, a major factor in why Moonbow in its current iteration has very little hope of ever seeing the light of day.

Heck, even before it was tuned to need slightly more headshotting, people were disdaining hagbane and calling it weak purely because they could not get over it not “feeling right”. Even when its known that a waystalker built for it is a small balance issue for cata all by herself too.

How so? whenever a horde starts a conga line, shoot straight downwards much like old javs, works splendidly. And though Scrounger with wild hunt is easier i do still like to shoot as i go when that is down.

If you got like 6 stormvermin or similar running down with a bit of distance then both javs and longbow can handle it just fine between killing or staggering the front to the point where the packmaster is exposed, Hagbane absolutely demolishes the pack.

For a less skilled user, Moonbow kills like 3 stormvermin then gets crashed on.

Fair point, maulers is the reason why i gave up bloodshot and assassin on the longbow WS and went with bleed + EP and then stumbled onto longbow piercing two marauders suddenly.

Still, both long&javs lets you very comfortably kill stormvermin, smaller CW groups, monks, berserkers and specials, if they dont die then they typically get heavily staggered. Worse under pressure but far too superior without.

Moonbow…is fine, if you mainly only melee everything and only wana shoot a special here or there. Most people will definitely want more though,i certainly do, especially for waystalker.

It does, but the problem is the limited ammo, cant really shoot anything except specials most of the time and both longbow&javs also onetap quite easily. Swiftbow…well waystalker puts OE minigun to shame down there.

And yes, sleeping is important!

Ops, missed this.

Meaning was that fire&gunrats typically do not start shooting instantly, there is a precursor animation followed by a second-ish the damage and aim disruptions really kick in. A sniper for instance can take aim at the firerats and wait for like half a second after the fire starts and still shoot with 100% accuracy. This applies much less to gunrats however the general application of this for BoP or any weapon using conservative really is that you have a deceptively long time to shoot before it becomes an issue.

That sounds Skaven exclusive. BoP doesn’t cleave Marauders.

I’ll further admit, you are swaying me regarding my suggestions not being enough to make Moonfire an appealing or competitive ranged weapon choice. The most interesting point, to me, is that Moonfire doesn’t reward skill as much as elf Longbow or Javelin because it doesn’t have CS and only has passive energy recharge.

Perhaps Moonfire having an in-built weapon trait like, ‘Killing enemies in melee restores x% energy’ would make it well-suited to staying right in the thick of the combat. Something like a Marauder (not Mauler in case anyone mixes them up) could be worth one quick shot.


I just want it to be able to be recharged faster with the R key AND to have some sort of impact visual effect instead of the line just stopping at the target and particles obscuring everything around them.

And better “burning” effects in general for all burning things that aren’t just particles sprinkled loosely around the target (affected enemies slightly glowing in the burning effect color, for example).

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I really like the suggestions from the first post. Reading through this thread I feel fairly convinced that Moonbow is a fine ranged accompaniment to a melee focused build, and while I think it’s ok for it to not be too desirable on WS as a backliner there are probably some fairly minor changes that could remedy this.

For one WS ammo passive really should affect Moonbow in some way. It’s really odd that it doesn’t. I don’t think +100% energy would be problematic since the recharge rate would still be the limiting factor for sustained DPS, you’d just be able to save up for longer for a larger burst giving a little more flexibility. I think it already has at least one good argument for it on WS and that’s facilitating a piercing shot build. Yes Javs kinda do that too but with more maintenance and hassle considering the regular reloading. The incredibly low attention cost of moonbow is a significant point in its favour IMO.

I don’t know what else I’d really want done with it besides that and Velsix’ original suggestions. Giving it +5% crit chance to be a better hunter proccer would be nice I guess and fits with being a good complement to melee heavy gameplay.


I thought that about longbow for quite a long time too, but then it crossed my mind, if i got a chaos wave running me down, isnt killing like half or so of the marauders in a matter of seconds with no risk and little cost kinda strong still? It isnt generally doable given conga lines do not always happen/armor/shields but when it works it works.

huh…a slightly larger energy bar (1-2) shots paired with a small energy refill on melee would make it a whole lot more appealing on Waystalker if nothing else, bloodshot synergy and all. But i do not think a marauder should drop from a quickshot though. Given it’s speed its fine to kill on semi charged headshots as it does now?

Optionally, it might also be worthwhile to let it actually cleave marauders under the same conditions as Longbow, Javs too for that matter, i do not believe either would become overpowered from it and it would not affect user ratios much at all it seems. That´d only make it reasonably better for WS&SoT, but it´d also be unlikely to cause much issue.

The risk of giving it a fully manual reload straight up is it completely overlapping with longbow in practice, having some limits or needs that need to be met beyond just “reload by holding a button for a couple of seconds” thus seems like a good plan.

As for the visual effect, its mostly only visible when the targets die yeah, special animation and colors for it based on moonbow skin used. Unfortunately…cata enemies are so dense so most of the time if one shoots into a group and a target dies its hidden behind a wall of others which makes it hard to see or feel that much happened.

By that, I meant an example of the energy return on melee kill: melee killing a Marauder could restore 1 quick arrow’s worth of energy.

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