Marksman's Focus

[Krestus]

MS does not work for 90% of weapons. I have tried many styles to make it work, but none are worth the effort or feel rewarding enough…

Only the Accentra lasgun works since it can also preserve ammo.

I tried Infantry lasgun, all versions, all pretty much fail to make it worth taking (MS talent point).

Las pistol (MK II) kinda works, but it’s high skill cap and still below general playstyles used atm. But yeah, Desperado las pistol is kinda fun to use.

MS should be like Blazing Piety, giving you plain 30% Range Strength lasting 12 seconds

MS should be changed to have a sub-node (you spend 1 talent point to get MS, and you have to choose one of the sub-nodes as well) that will alter the way MS gets triggered eg.:

1. 5 consecutive enemy 1-taps or 3 non-normal enemy 1-taps activate MS

2. 15 consecutive weakspot hits activate MS

3. Dealing 9000 ranged dmg under 8 seconds activates MS

Now, each of these should also have sub-nodes, you can choose only 1.

1a. While MS is active, you deal only 20% Ranged Str. buy you also gain 30% Ranged Stagger Str.
1b. While MS is active, you deal 45% more Ranged Str, but your ranged attacks cannot crit

2a. While MS is active, you gain an additional 10% crit chance
2b. While MS is active, your ranged attacks have 25% more suppression

3a. After triggering MS you have 5second to deal an additional 6000 Ranged DMG to refund full magazine
3b. After triggering MS, your next Magazine has 30% rendering.

Naturally, this is just theory crafting that would need to be tested for the number to be fine-tuned..

[alsozara]

A bit odd but another idea that has just come to me. Stack gain on headshot kill could scale inversely with fire rate of your ranged weapon. Don’t know how hard that would be for them to implement but it would balance faster vs slower firing weapons quite well. Like if the slow firing inf Las was getting eg 5 stacks per headshot kill that would definitely make it more appealing. Meanwhile IAG would be getting like 1 stack per headshot kill.

Additionally if some of the finesse bonus was moved to a ranged damage bonus that would let it help out more when you miss headshots and make it a bit more broadly helpful for lower finesse bonus guns.

Eg finesse bonus down from 7.5% → 5% per stack. Additionally grants +1.5% ranged damage per stack.

Honestly the reload speed bonus could also probably afford to be bumped up to at least 1.5% per stack. It barely qualifies as a “nice to have” at its current level.

Bit of a boring number approach but I think those two changes combined would pretty heavily alleviate the issue with narrow valid use cases.

[Padds]

@Molonious

With Marksman’s Focus, the basic functionality means automatic weapons firing at close range are going to have both an easier time generating stacks, and get functionally more out of the bonus damage that isn’t being wasted on overkill.

yes but your trading ease of use by limiting effective range , id think you can kill ranged enemies at mid to long range faster with a single shot headhunter than you can a mk5 auto. You will certainly reload less.
Shout is certainly one of the top abilities but i find the sway accuracy and and highlighting of exe to be worth a lot , especially trying to quickly pop heads out at range. it certainly looks like a valid choice at least.

sure if your spraying short range enemies shout might be better, but id say power sword would be better choice still.

[Svyat020]

I’d say that vet needs a bit of rework again in general

[Molonious]

@Padds

yes but your trading ease of use by limiting effective range , id think you can kill ranged enemies at mid to long range faster with a single shot headhunter than you can a mk5 auto. You will certainly reload less. Shout is certainly one of the top abilities but i find the sway accuracy and and highlighting of exe to be worth a lot , especially trying to quickly pop heads out at range. it certainly looks like a valid choice at least. sure if your spraying short range enemies shout might be better, but id say power sword would be better choice still.

Even if we take that as true, most those are points of tactics and playstyle, whether it’s best to fight at close range or hang back at longer range is a debate without a clear answer by design, but the fundamental mechanics of Marksman’s Focus are more efficient for the short range autogun and its playstyle.

If you’re running a properly built Helbore or Headhunter with Exe Stance, how much are you really getting out of MF as you pick enemies off at range? How many targets are you overkilling (probably most)? How often would Focus Target deliver just as much value for the targets where you need an extra boost to hit a breakpoint (or miss the head and hit center-mass)?

In the overwhelmingly vast majority of cases, with the setup you’re talking the Helbore or Headhunter is getting less out of MF than the Autogun will. The Autogun is going to generate stacks faster and deliver more actual damage into enemies that isn’t just wasted into the Warp and enjoy a much greater performance boost as a result, enemies that took 4 or 5 rounds to kill will now go down in 2 or 3. That’s what I’m getting at, the execution of Marksman’s Focus at its core delivers more value to short range burst fire weapons than it does to long range precision weapons, and that’s an inherent problem with the concept. Most of these precision long range guns don’t need tons more finesse damage, that’s not what they’re lacking, one-shotting targets harder on weakspot hits isn’t really helping things.

[Bastion220]

Its really only good for weapons like, say, Bolter and Plasma Gun.

Its not that its bad, it really isn’t and opens up a lot of cool builds. But players that are able to utilise this are probably playing at least Auric and most likely Havoc 30+ where you need Shield, not just for yourself but your teammates.

[Padds]

@Molonious

Even if we take that as true, most those are points of tactics and playstyle, whether it’s best to fight at close range or hang back at longer range is a debate without a clear answer by design, but the fundamental mechanics of Marksman’s Focus are more efficient for the short range autogun and its playstyle.

If you’re running a properly built Helbore or Headhunter with Exe Stance, how much are you really getting out of MF as you pick enemies off at range? How many targets are you overkilling (probably most)? How often would Focus Target deliver just as much value for the targets where you need an extra boost to hit a breakpoint (or miss the head and hit center-mass)?

In the overwhelmingly vast majority of cases, with the setup you’re talking the Helbore or Headhunter is getting less out of MF than the Autogun will. The Autogun is going to generate stacks faster and deliver more actual damage into enemies that isn’t just wasted into the Warp and enjoy a much greater performance boost as a result, enemies that took 4 or 5 rounds to kill will now go down in 2 or 3. That’s what I’m getting at, the execution of Marksman’s Focus at its core delivers more value to short range burst fire weapons than it does to long range precision weapons, and that’s an inherent problem with the concept. Most of these precision long range guns don’t need tons more finesse damage, that’s not what they’re lacking, one-shotting targets harder on weakspot hits isn’t really helping things.

i have no idea how much it provides or how to even measure it, it for sure overkills a lot, i have never got on well with focus target i just can’t use it for me personally it generates a lot less but that’s my skill issue.

yeah, the autogun does all that, it’s a fun play style for me to .

But the perfect isnt the enemy of the good and just because an autogun will hit max stacks faster doesnt mean a headhunter takes too long.

sure a mk 5 full auto into the face of a pox horde at sub 5 m is going to max out the damage bonus stack speed and everything else, but maybe being able to suppress all ranged enemies rapidly killing efficiently is worth more?

i had to look back and see what this all started , and it was me disagreeing with someone who said this talent made you immobile

still not convinced the keystone was designed around

@Molonious

that’s supposed to be all about taking considered, precise headshots is best when aggressively pushing forward with automatic fire at close ranges, while the weapons that are most effective/reliant on well placed headshots at range do better with another keystone (or none at all), something is probably wrong with the fundamental keystone concept.

i think it was designed to give the ranged vet much needed mobility while still remaining a marksman roll and it does that.

yes an autogun doing a less valuable job will max stacks faster and make more use of the damage, but these are not the only things being utilised, Stamina toughness, sway reduction, rending reload and that doesn’t mean you can’t use a headhunter to kill all ranged enemies effectively. just because it can do all that doesnt make the other uses invalid.

its viable, its fun (for me) im happy with it.

[Ralendil]

Veteran’s keystones are not worth the points you would spend for them. And they are badly designed.

[Ragnarok101]

My take is that MF should be a straightforward ‘here is weakspot damage’ buff with optional rending and critical hit nodes.

No stacks, no movement mechanics, just see enemy, shoot enemy.

[Enforest]

You mean that picking Marksman Focus should actually make you a Marksman? No way!

[Ralendil]

I think a simple time window for the bonus would have been better. let’s say for 3.5 s and the MF should drop 1 stack at the time.
But maybe they would have to lower a little the bonus…

numbers can be tweaked, horrible mechanics cannot.

[Bastion220]

Whats a marksman in dt

[Tarquelne]

@Ralendil

Veteran’s keystones are not worth the points you would spend for them. And they are badly designed.

You aren’t taking into account the “Translating +75% Ranged Finesse Strength to damage” minigame. Hours of fun.

[MONIKA2333]

In fact, the calculation formula for weak point damage in the game is very strange, resulting in a very low actual damage increase value. For example, if you fire a bullet, the normal damage of this bullet is 100 and the weak damage is 150. Then 75% of the weak point damage increases the damage on the basis of 50 (150-100). That is to say, in fact, a 75% weakness boost can only cause this bullet to deal 187.5 (100+50x (1 +75%)) damage
Here I use an ordinary infantry laser and the following talents to experiment with the actual damage bonus of finesse bonus

Here we can calculate the actual damage increase size of this cornerstone.
473-183=290 ；290x0.75=217.5 ；217.5 +473=690.5.

[Ralendil]

Add to this that lot of bonuses (not all) are multiplicative.

Here the finesse bonus is additive and the power is multiplicative.

Don’t ask me how to calculate multiplicative… never seen someone that can explain it. But if someone can explain it to me and gives a spreadsheet for that, I take!

[Bastion220]

Why would you play a Lasgun without KillZone and the 30% Weakpoint dmg node? if its for testing fair enough. If its because of tree limitations well, we have found one of the main culprits.

[Bastion220]

Additive means added to the current stat, multiplicative means the amount being added x (multiply) by the base amount. Additice bonuses are very strong, multiplicative with power needs to be so otherwise it’d skyrocket the Power level and noone wants that. Its a code version of saying ‘mini buff’.

[Ralendil]

I had understood that

Now gives me the real bonus if you have

• 50% toughness damage reduction from enduring faith
• 15% TDR from nodes (they are additives between them then multiplicative with others)
• 25% TDR fromn Stalwart
• 25% damage reduction (so also TDR) from good balance

Tell me how I calculate that…
And with the hypothesis of without Stalwart (this is a real problem I tried to solve to see if stalwart was adding any TDR when all talents have triggered)

[Bastion220]

Why do you need to know the specific integers? A lot less, less, slightly less.

[Bastion220]

Its fine as is, but the tree itself is the problem. It was the first (iirc) rework and now itsd a bit outdated, as we’ve had 2 difficulty levels added since then.

MF and Exec Stance are relics of an old game. They work fine, in a microcosm, but the tree needs adjusted. Exec stance needs a high amount of built in immunity bypassing Suppression. MF costs too much in Havoc for little gain.