I do like this in concept, yeah, no arguments there. I don’t think that’s really what’s going on for the most part though.
Weaves were more analogous to a combat puzzle than anything else from what I played of them (I wasn’t a fan and tried them after they had long died), which isn’t really what most people were asking for for Darktide. It’s definitely additional ‘challenge’ in that it’s content that isn’t trivial, but I don’t think it’s going to have much staying power.
Combine that with what has been said by both Murderer and myself at this point regarding the balance of Havoc then becoming a mess because it also seems balanced around said abilities and it’s asking for long term trouble. (For a mode that already is going to have issues with long term appeal)
Guess we’ll have to agree to disagree there honestly, I do not enjoy the way Havoc is implementing additional challenge at all. I’m all for making the game more difficult, doing so by arbitrarily removing certain things is not something for me. I’d like to be challenged because of the game overall being difficult and asking a balanced loadout to handle a variety of threats (EG: In Vermintide needing to have a solution to both armor and hordes, where it was very common to have one weapon slot dedicated to each), not because the game has nerfed my capabilities so much that I have to rely on spamming one support skill to survive.
the game mode is sure strict and making you to use certain abilities, or even characters (it was a bit the same in vt2 weaves too, even though in vt2 weaves were fixed, therefore you know which character was best to use for certain modifiers, spawns etc.) because of the difficulty, i don’t think it’s bad per se.
especially for a game advertised as end game. you really don’t have to use the best of the best, but playing more as a team, and they actually achieved this imo. but obviously things like golden toughness and stagger help anyway. if fatshark was happen to nerf all these things, then havoc would get an overhaul too and not being the same or a difficulty that is different and not being more challenging.
i don’t mind health and toughness being reduced, ammo reduced etc. nor i would mind nerfs on golden toughness etc but i don’t think these are the actual problems. if something is taken because of the game mode, doesn’t mean it’s op because other stuff were not taken for it, it was balanced/intended to use those specific things for havoc i wish maybe the modifiers were plenty where you could also take something else depending the modifier, map etc.
they were becoming very hard than havoc 40 by a lot. after reaching 120+ especially.
it had insane spawns where even a bullet from ratling gunners or an arrow from a beastmen would oneshotted you, where natural bond it was the play. (because of a hidden effect where if you are at full hp, any hit that is lethal, will make you survive to exactly 1 hp) which is some sort of scuffed until death) and it was really a nice challenge overall.
which i felt the same for havoc, even if it was a bit less (and not because of the chorus or golden toughness, cause i don’t mind what fatshark gives as tools to complete a game mode, but more in term of difficulty in general, it wasn’t insane to the levels of vt2 weaves imo)
fair no problem, i don’t try to convince anyone, and i like to listen other peoples opinions
Dude, you nailed it on the head. One of my favorite modifiers is the darkness modifier. I can’t stand people who use flashlights because that counters the modifier. I mean, I don’t always run flashlight, it can be more difficult, but it’s a 50% difference on how effective it is.
Just like how if there’s a pox gas modifier, you won’t see me running zealot to cleanse corruption on people. The effectiveness is something like 200%. The ability should be nerfed because it’s so vital to countering that part of the difficulty.
I haven’t played the Vermintide’s, so I can’t talk on Weaves, but I think that Havoc missed the point by focusing on the wrong things.
The fun for me in Darktide comes from playing Auric Maelstrom with a random squad.
Either joining at the beginning of the run or even better: enter directly into the game while the squad has been overrun by Heretics and are in bad spot.
So players “as a modifier” are a big part of what makes Darktide so fun and engaging for me, and Havoc removes this by forcing everyone to play effective builds and strategies, which removes the fun aspects of Darktide: the chaos, such as people being blown off the map at the start of Gloriana.
Darktide is at its best when it’s super casual and you can bring any loadout into the game, especially when the director surprises you by wanting you dead right from the start of the map.
Removing that fun by doubling down on class stacking, shoehorning loadouts, and creating methods that force players to hug each other instead of allowing the fun chaos to happen leads to a boring and predictable MMORPG type of experience.
Yeah I think they should remove the health and toughness decrease from Havoc, feels artificial and not needed.
Also fading light is ridiculous, should be removed for sure, you can get downed in like 0.1s from a common shooter which just breaks the balance of the entire mode. there’s no counter-play to that, you’re just dead, it’s like if the crushers could attack from across the map and 1shot you, that’s basically what fading light turns the ranged enemies into, a ranged crusher.
Can you help elaborate on what you mean by “artificial?” I don’t understand this grievance. This has always been part of difficulty increases since I can remember - and I was born in the 80s. I expect toughness and damage to increase in harder difficulties.
Toughness and damage increases from all of the base difficulties (e.g. damnation, heresy, etc.) I see Havocs as the “heroic mode.” Of the game; the next difficulty up.
Within the context of a heroic mode, it seems that organically increasing difficulty (more enemies, more mechanics) seems less like that heroic mode and more like just expanded modifiers. The difficulty itself hasn’t moved. You just have more enemies that you kill just as fast as if the modifier wasn’t there. So… I’m lost on that front.
Your reply is not displaying who you’re replying to, so am I to assume you’re talking to me? I checked the message you replied to and I’m not seeing any judgement in there…
Mechanics and core mechanics are 2 different things though.
Eg. Reducing amount of ammo pickups in a mission - modifying mechanics.
Reducing the amount of ammo given per pickup or is allowed per player - modifying core mechanics.
Both have the same result on the gameplay but 1 messes with the engrained knowledge the player has learned to muscle memory over many hours of play, and thus is a bit…messy.
It’s just a poor jab at me because he’s abandoned all pretense of not being a little goober, regarding the complete removal of toughness gating.
I’d recommend just not engaging with him. As evidenced by the prior conversation with him he doesn’t actually know how to debate points, only cherry pick singular things and try to twist it.
If people don’t really get the difference between something like “You literally cannot shoot anymore” and “Removed ammo spawns” then I guess to some people the two would both just be a ‘modifier’ and on equal levels.
I argue that now we have the best of both worlds, if u want casual fun theres always the normal queue and if u want sweaty tryhard stuff, theres Havoc!
I mean, I was hoping we’d get something like what a lot of deckbuilders/rouge-likes get where we start at a standard Auric Damnation difficulty with the occasional specialist wave, but each level adds 1 extra bespoke modifier, which by itself is trivial but when you’ve got 40 of them it’s madness. Given time, I’d probably be able to create hundreds of these. But here’s just 40, not really ordered for optimal progression.
1.) There’s a % chance to spawn a Champion Non-Ogryn Elite or Specialist, that are bigger, move faster, hit harder and are a bit tougher, % increases with each level.
2.) Champion Poxbursters leave behind creep. They also recover from falling faster (Y’know, that one slow “I’m getting up but I don’t have arms” animation.
3.) Gunners have a % chance to spawn with helmets.
4.) Bulwarks and Reapers have a chance to spawn with additional armor plating. Crushers can spawn without a helmet.
5.) Whenever a Champion Mutie hits a wall, nearby enemies are buffed.
6.) Champion Melee Elites now have a % chance to spawn with a non-regenerating bubble shield.
7.) Horde Events now spawn an additional mob of nurgle-blessed trash enemies.
8.) Hordes have a chance to spawn an Ogryn Elite amidst them.
9.) Champion Ragers now force the player they’re targeting into melee-only.
10.) Effective dodges are reduced by 1.
11.) Champion Pox Bombers now explode into pox gas when killed with ranged.
12.) Monstrosities can now bless nearby enemies with certain attacks (Burgle Creep, Plogryn stomp, CSpawn jumping attack)
13.) Fleeing Trappers leave beartraps behind, which immobilize but not incapacitate. They also hurt, yeowch!
14.) % Chance to spawn a wave of weakened muties, snipers or dogs every X minutes.
15.) Champion Flamers leave puddles of flame in their wake.
16.) Everyone spawns with less starting ammo, ammo pickups are more common
17.) Chance to spawn Assassination Targets (We can keep this one, this one’s good)
18.) % Chance a Champion Specialist becomes a Weakened Monstrosity.
19.) Champion Ranged enemies have a small chance to drop an Enemy Psyker Bubble Shield on death.
20.) Players outside of coherency receive less toughness from all sources.
21.) Champion shotgunners have considerably increased knockback.
22.) Champion Trappers can now fire 2 nets before having to reload.
23.) Champion Snipers have active camo, becoming partially transparent. They also now have green lasers and explode in smoke upon death, for the vibes.
24.) All health charges spawn unpowered. Carrying objects gives increased resistance to ranged attacks, but prevents sliding.
25.) Champion Maulers gain rending resistance.
26.) Champion Bombers now throw tox nades, and have a small chance to throw a second grenade (Similar to Vet Talent).
27.) Hordes have a chance to become Mobian 21st hordes.
28.) Infested enemies have a chance to spawn tentacled and blighted with creep-juice.
29.) Tox Flames buff enemies.
30.) Combat Abilities regenerate slower.
31.) Infested enemies are always nurgle-blessed.
32.) Champion Dogs cause a wave of Hunting Dogs to spawn on death.
33.) Getting shot by a shooter reduces stamina regen for a short period.
34.) Monstrosities always spawn with a wave of elites.
35.) Fog now has a chance to “Roll In” and “Roll out” during missions (I’d also like rolling blackouts but that’d probably be a pain to implement).
36.) Auspic scans and Interrogators are slower now.
37.) Champions all spawn creep-blighted.
38.) Champion Gunners reduce movement speed on hit. It’s percentage based. Mwha-ha-ha.
39.) Nurgle-Blessed enemies are creep blighted and vice-versa.
40.) Everyone spawns with 1 less wound.
A Champion system would help alleviate the sponge-y-ness, damage-y-ness your concerned about by focusing it to certain enemies, and the levels borrowed from maelstrom modifiers could have a much lower chance than their maelstrom counterparts, so it’s more like a special event than a persistent threat.
if you have full toughness, it blocks health damage if the hit would normally deal health damage through the toughness. the term comes from borderlands where…a LOT of shenanigans in that game are based on abusing your shield’s similer mechanics.
I’d like to be challenged because of the game overall being difficult and asking a balanced loadout to handle a variety of threats (EG: In Vermintide needing to have a solution to both armor and hordes, where it was very common to have one weapon slot dedicated to each), not because the game has nerfed my capabilities so much that I have to rely on spamming one support skill to survive.
