Its a delicate balance... and, unfortunately, still not there. The playerbase is quickly (and permanently) eroding

Okay dude, again, you’re making a completely different point than what’s being discussed in this thread, go make a new thread if you want to complain that the loot grind is completely unrewarding (which is a valid opinion, but again, irrelevant to this discussion). Again, my point is that there is no significant difference between the rewards of 5-book champion and any legend run, so legend doesn’t need to be nerfed for the average player to succeed in it.

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All games drop player base over time, even huge AAA multiplayer games that are supposed to have a lot of longevity, like Battlefield and Call of Duty games. Those games are still kicking, and the numbers surely went back up each time there was a new content drop.

Not everyone wants endless grind as an end-game - I wouldn’t even argue that that IS the endgame of Vermintide (1 or 2). People just get obsessive about collecting in a game where the collectibles are more rare treats than something you should aim for. Player skill is what the endgame is. No matter how good you get, you can always get better, and hopefully with mods and expansions to the Deed system they will give more variation and higher difficulties to aim for.

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This is a great idea! Kudos to you for helping the newbies and I’m going to do some of that myself. There was people who helped me that way in V1 and now that I think about it that was a huge factor in me staying with the game. Time to do my part!

Totally agree about the time investment thing too. Boggles my mind that some people will put 300+ hours into a game and then say “this is boring and I don’t recommend it.”

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How can you even think about balance on any level, legend or otherwise, when the game spawn is so random and buggy as to be beyond predictable?

When they fix spawning rats out of people’s butts, or falling from the sky, or just plain popping into existence right in front of you, then maybe you can look at balance.

I’m not convinced I’ve personally had a rat spawn out of my own butthole, but I accept that somewhere in the world this is likely to have happened. This kind of thing is very alarming, and should be fixed ASAP. XD

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Well,I didn’t really feel the need to contribute to the discussion as my opinion on difficulty is still for FS to add one more.

I just replied to your statement

which I wholeheartedly (and with an explanation as long as it is bitter) disagree.

So me making a point different than the discussions topic is irrelevant even if it were the case.Which it isn’t,as the discussion in not only about legend balance for the average player but also about endgame and endgame rewards.

The endgame is non-existent, unrewarding and,as OP said it might be too difficult/frustrating for the average player and thus it might result in playerbase dwindling.
Me and players like me are just another example of this, only for slightly different reasons.
Of course there will be the inevitable “you’re overreacting” “20% a month is nothing you idjit” and so on. I know this because I’ve seen it happen 4 times in 4 different games over the last 5 years, and those were just the games I was hyped for and in which forum discussions I read and participated in. VT2 isn’t in such an awful spot YET, only because the visceral combat is appealing to players who don’t have a lot of hours clocked in.

But like I said, if you saw every possible enemy die every possible way from every possible weapon and every possible combination of attacks in every possible environment on every possible difficulty…then the game’s got nothing else aside of a ton of half-baked or completely broken garbage and quickly scavenged assets from the previous game.

Remember how developers said each career would have their own voice lines? You ever heard one of the three unique voice lines each career has, hidden under 90% of VT1 voice lines? Cause I don’t remember because even voice lines aren’t working properly,so you can’t really tell. Hell,I’m sure I never heard Bardin Slayer say something about glorious suicide by Rat Ogre, only that he is a “OWWWWWW…mountain”, which is quite suitable for a suicidal killing machine the Slayer is supposed to be…I guess.)

So to the half-baked everything we can also add throwing all the hype and expectations dedicated players who read every tweet,watched every stream and read every interview into the trash, because f-you,we gave you TWITCH MODE.
(totally not because of Twitch’s raising advertising power that threatens Googles Youtube itself.
No,nooo,I’m sure the reason for Twitch mode is because the tens of thousands of people streaming VT1 begged for it and told FS that they don’t mind a botched up game as long as there is Twitch mode,because it’s obvious that every average player streams and simply couldn’t live without this awesome feature)

In my honest opinion, there is a big misunderstanding: red items aren’t the final goal, but they are a start… without reds it is impossible to try every careers and to find the ideal equip for legend. Champion should have drop% like Legend, so players can farm in champ, become strong and then they can enjoy Legend for personal satisfaction and maybe higher cosmetics % ^^’

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You do not need reds to start doing legend.

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But this would help… it’s nonsense get red items doing legend. I already bet higher difficulty, I don’t need better equip. Logic would like that I have to prepare before a great challenge.

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I feel like this thread has just turned into people attacking each other and soap boxing.

The gripping visceral melee gameplay of 35 rats stacked into one lagskating right into your face and instakilling you, while globadiers and blightstormers cast from out of bounds and hookrats silently spawn behind you.
Yeah, a lot of wonder why player base is leaving by the thousands.

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You are on steam, people buy a game, try it few hours, then a new game release, they leave and buy the new one.
Vermintide 2 isn’t a mmorpg, don’t expect people to stay.
Game isn’t perfect at all but it has more to do with how the steam playerbase works than the difficulty
Also Vermintide 2 was more popular than the first one at release

My opinion

L4D2 - average daily players: 8k.
Team Fortress 2 - average daily players 38k
Payday 2 - average daily players 24k
Borderlands 2 - 7k

L4D2 being the most important in this- NO customization,NO loot,9 years old, people still playing it - mostly for the mods,but you can get regular campaign runs as well.

facts.

Sadly I think FS devs think you need super RNG grind to keep players. I think they stopped in time like 10 years ago…

I could understand grind, but to add RNG to it on top of RNG on top of RNG and sprinkle little more RNG on top of that is just too much.

There is simple no reward in this game.

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all that reward RNG… from linear maps with predictable hordes/bosses/specials, combat that’s supposed to favor skill instead of luck and repetitive career talents

kinda ironic.

someone will inevitably throw in “playing it is a reward in itself!why can’t people have fun?” cant, so I’m answering beforehand:

every game loses it’s novelty at some point, but implementing OPTIONS and doing radical changes & tweaks is what keeps refreshing games.

I understand why multiplayer only game developers have issues with radical experimentation with balance, but in this?
There’s no excuse for not just TRYING things.
Game mechanics and weapon/career “balance” were inconsistent from the very beginning and waaay into post launch(they still are),so the “we don’t want people who got used to a certain playstyle to be denied all their in-game experience and skill” excuse goes out the window as well.

I LIKE the game,I LIKE playing it, but when you play it so much that a 3 hour session is completely unmemorable and each playthrough makes you a zombie that uses post-mortem eye/hand muscle memory to imitate fun for most of the time(and I stave off becoming that zombie only because now I never play more than one game with each career and I change weapons and trinkets at random), then the shortcomings,major flaws and slow & insubstantial patching that (and it’s more or less officially confirmed) belongs in a beta(because this IS a beta that behaves like a beta,has issues like a beta and the mechanics are experimented with like they should have been in beta stage at the very least) then forcing oneself to stay interested and optimistic whilst putting off other would-be go-to games is quite irritating.

Or, to give a shorter and less complicated comparison: VT2 now is like a great movie that you watch again and again…but it’s supposed to be a great series, keeping you in the familiar, yet still managing to keep you hooked and surprise you instead of watching that movie when you’re falling asleep, and muttering lines along with the actors.

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7000 less filthy casuals ruining my pub loot grinds xD

Game’s only just been released, has a lot of bugs, and it’s hard AF, it would naturally have a rapid decline whilst it finds its footing I’d imagine. Gotta manage your expectations when you play this game I’ve realised, if nothing else

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What is wrong with doing full book Champion runs then. You’re pretty much guaranteed a chance at General’s and a red item; the same chance as a successful legend run from my understanding. You certainly get more xp for commendations than from failed legend runs

Fun things must be obtainable for a large proportion of players, otherwise most will be missing out on fun in the game that could retain customers

I sense that Fatshark understands this. I think that Legend is ok though could be tweaked (bring back conc brew for the hordes), but is certainly too difficult for most players

Guys just need to wait for mod support

Too early to foreshadow such doom I think

I really don’t understand why they did away with Quests and Contracts. In VT1 that kept my interest for so long just checking in on the new daily rewards everyday. Deeds are a huge step backward.

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I think it’s because there’s not enough maps ! I’m just bored playing the same thing over and over now.

Why not join the Fatshark Discord https://discord.gg/K6gyMpu