Yes.
An adult doesn’t need the satirical aspect to be thrust in their face at every fractional second to grasp it.
No, the setting should not be changed for people who don’t have the braincells to comprehend this, or those who are obsessed with witch hunting and want everything to be hand-holdy.
Give the audience some credit.
40k has always taken the Paul Verhoven approach to satire in that you just show the thing you’re critiquing at it’s logical extreme, which has varying mileage because people who aren’t too good at critical thinking often take including something in fiction to be an endorsement.
I think if 40k is “saying” anything in it’s portrayal of humanity, it’s the idea that the only situation where a society like the Imperium could in any way be seen as justifiable to a sane person is if there are literal dark gods, demons, and hostile aliens that pose an existential threat to humanity. Luckily those things don’t actually exist so the takeaway should be that religious zealotry, xenophobia, and superstition are regressive tendencies in humanity that are often exploited by people in power and should be rejected, and it’s probably not a good sign if the society you’re a part of has started embracing those things to the point it’s informing political policy. I don’t think 40k gets much deeper or more specific than that and it doesn’t really need to.
I wouldn’t mind if they at least got the definition right. But a lot of political, economical and professional terms with very defined meanings are completely ignored and have their meaning supplanted with something else, based on emotions.
The intellectual base level always falling.
This is a general trend not just in politics, but everywhere else, too.
For instance when in a movie scene someone commits a murder and people say that was a “psychopath” without understanding the true medical definition of a psychopath or that an emotional outburst followed by manslaughter is anything but psychopathic.
Or economical concepts that are thought of as completely wrong concepts in people’s heads. Everyone throwing around big words like Socialism, Capitalism, Communism, etc. without ever getting deeper into the true core aspects of these concepts and what logical conclusions must follow when they are applied.
Even Marxist ideals are not recited correctly. Ask any Marxist if they have written Karl Marx’ full book and ask for receipts such as important quotes. You’ll get blank stares.
It seems most people nowadays just like fighting for something and do the next best thing that falls into their lap via popular culture, driven by social engineering. Nobody bothers understanding anymore what they are fighting for, what against or for what reason. It’s quite tiresome to witness.
I agree, if you count all the Perpetuals(Immortals) and what lots of them did for Humanity and some for Xeno Cabal but then end up serving Humies again in one way or another, i´d say Good Guys yes!
Dont forget Vulkan and his Legion of Salamanders who protect even lowly citizens and Soldiers whom others would swat away like flies shows that they are not the bad guys.
First world problems. People who live under authoritarian/dictatorship regimes don’t devaluate such termins like fascism, cause you need it for when things will become worse.
Mayson
the Imperium are the good guys, since, for all their collective faults and failings, they’re still the only force in the universe that actually cares about preserving mankind
Well, in the eyes of Chaos they are the ultimate evil, in the eyes of the psykers they are a murderous oppressive regime, etc. And this assumes preserving mankind is an overall good, when there’s so many other sentient lifeforms, striving to survive via perhaps less violent means.
This is actually very interesting, because canonically (if i remember correctly) chaos gods appeared because humanity had become so big in numbers, their collective emotions fed the warp entities. Of course, it’s not just humanity that’s at fault, but humanity’s expansion was like nothing ever seen in the world up to that point, it seems to me.
So, you could argue humanity is largely responsible for this global war 40k universe finds itself in.
And what’s “good” in 40k universe anyway? Killing xenos, burning heretics? 
Debatable.
As we see in Warhammer Fantasy, Orks, cunning little Ratmen, elves and many other threats existed long before Humanity went to space. And always were these forces at war with Mankind.
What makes them “peaceful” or “better” civilizations than man?
I think it is satire, although it is not necessarily comic satire.
For those who’ve read all of the Eisenhorn books, it satirises the overbearing judgemental nature of the Inqusition, while the main protagonists routinely act in a manner that is in direct conflict with their own edicts. It is a satirisation of the influence of power and position, the self justification and ‘end justifies the means’ mentality of much of the real world people in positions of power. Absolute power corrupts absolutely and all that.
Godwin Fiscig from that series is one of the few, truly honest and honourable characters i’ve discovered in W40k writing and distills the ideals of the Imperium pretty well.
Orks are still excellent satire for the English Football Fans of the 80s/90s that were their inspiration, although those kind of incidents of continuous fighting every weekend between rival football fans is -thankfully- largely consigned to the memorys of Longbeards like me.
The problem is not the writing in the w40k books, but how it interpreted and used by fundamental nut-jobs and downright rotten people.
This is also true of the Bible, Quaran, The writing of Karl Marx, all they way upto and including what Elon Musk says on twitter. It’s not what’s being said, it’s the fact rancid people use it for their own ends. It has ever been thus.
Starship troopers didnt stop being satire because some people thought it was pro fascist.
a lot of the imagery used in American history X a deeply anti white spuremicist film was co opted by white supremists, didnt change the films message
and wh40k doesnt become less satire just because it attracts actual fascists
that is normal for satire , it is not openly hostile to the group it is satirising but the points are there when and if they are ready to see its the wedge in the door its the question forming at the back of the mind.
now if you want to just slam something ridicule is the way to go. no nazi, fascist or white supremist co opted anything from springtime for hitler but then they probably never watched it either.
But lets also bear in mind social reform is neither the point or aim of the wh40k verse its a game and the empire does have to be cool to.
The Tau by are actually pretty good - at least compared to any other faction in 40K.
Yes - the imperium has elements of many authoritarian regimes - theocracy, feudalism and communism just as imminent as fascism.
I liked how in the warhammer animations (like hammer and bolter or the exodite) you sometimes get an outside look in humanity in 40K: Brutal, murderous, hateful and barbaric. The Imperium isn’t good - it’s just that most factions are even worse.
Here we go again with Harridas and fascists. Guess what, you cannot stop fascists from liking your favourite food or a dystopian piece of pop-culture. Also if you are so covinced W40k is a breeding ground for fascists, then what you are still doing on a forum associated with this setting? Weird doesn’t describe it.
That’s precisely the point, Warhammer Fantasy writers didn’t go - those damn elves, they are evil-doers, better not like them too much. We’re just prejudiced against all other races really, so we tend to support man, because you can’t really relate to a race of sentient rats on a fundamental level.
Just the simple fact we can have this discussion makes the whole franchise better, i think.
Of course I can’t, though if GW and the writers actually cared they might be able to have them leave. And this makes it the second time you’re downplaying the issue by dishonestly going after me instead of engaging with the topic at hand. And to answer the question, I enjoy the tide games because of Fatshark, not because of the setting.
Now why are you so interested in downplaying the 40K community’s fascism problem? Should I stop using the scary fascism word and more specifically state that a small but noticeable portion of the community tends to lean heavily towards transphobia, homophobia, xenophobia, racism, misogyny and may or may not glorify actual Nazis together with the space Nazis? Should we turn a blind eye to it?
Take a read at this for an in-depth perspective if have time to spare.
who is this tim colwill? he states no credentials nor affiliation? so is he just a guy writing a blog?
doesn’t strike me as particular trustworthy source.
after reading a while i encountered several red flags in writing, as an example this:
this is an perfect example, of the “just asking questions” rhetoric, also known as JAQing off
he basically implies that any wearer of a an Aquila tattoo must be a sympathizer of the values of the Imperium, and by “asking it” he shifts burden of proof.
where as in reality, there’s absolutely no basis for the assumption in the first place.
or that he makes blanket claims constantly without giving any sources except examples of cases, wich may or may not reflect a general paradigm.
he might be onto something, but i don’t particular care to bring politics into my hobbies.
and he struck me more as an populist than anything else, but what do i know…
Yea, as far as Tim wants people to know, he’s just a guy. Though he did work as a freelance journalist. I don’t think it makes his ideas less valid.
To whom do you think it shifts the burden to? I think it clearly criticizes that the claim of 40K being unambiguous is BS.
And the imperial aquila logo is very similar to the iron eagle logo and intentionally so, despite that people get tattoos of it. I believe it’s fair to question/criticize someone would choose to get a tattoo of that regardless of whether or not they’re fully aware of that fact.
I have to ask then why you’d choose to engage in this particular topic given that neither Warhammer or this thread are apolitical. Maybe your interests are starting to branch out? Idk.
You are very selective on your reading, aren’t you? It has already been explained here that the Imperium is neither fascist nor national socialist, so… I have a proposition for you, why don’t you explain here what do those ideologies had of similar with the Imperium? Instead of just throwing words out there for the sake of it.
Learn to read or just leave. You are the one making a problem here not “them”. Stop looking for attention by using those words.
The imperium has nothing against other humans (unless heretics or seditionists). There is no racism (the aliens are species, not races) in the Imperium, nor homophobia.
Literally everything within the Imperium of Man exists in service to the emperor. And the imperium meets nearly every single point from Umberto Eco’s Ur-Fascism’s 14 points with the recent exception of point 12.
I’m entirely inclined to believe now that you either lack critical thinking or you’re not engaging in good faith. The way Ogryns & Psykers are called abhumans and how they are treated is the easiest example of this. The type of discrimination and reasoning we see in (what we are calling) racism isn’t exclusive to skin color. And making the distinction that the fictional aliens are a different species and thus there is no racism is just so stupid that I don’t know where to begin.
You have to realize that just because the imperium isn’t a satire of 1:1 IRL fascism that it isn’t devoid of meaning.
well journalism gets a bad rep because of Clickbaiting, scaremongering and Inflating debates, if your a single person living from journalism you neither under scrutiny of your peers, nor under threat of unemployment for bad journalistic behavior. (not that mainstream journalism does a particulary good job of that)
not saying he is doing any of that, but if his motives are of monetary nature he very well might be
i told you how the rhetorical tool is called, if you were to look it up it you’d notice how insidious way of speak it is.
thats the mistake your making, he doesn’t actually ask people why they got the tattoo, and simply preloads the whole question with the presumption that one who gets such a tattoo, must unironically be supportive of the way of the Imperium
he does however not have any support for this.
if you follow this logic anyone with a sith tattoo is evil! you got a galactic empire tattoo you’re pro dictatorship! got viking tats? he believes in odin! Joker tattoo? Anarchist!
where as in reality, people just, like getting popculture tattoos
first, im capable to separate real life politics from fictional politics, my bad shouldn’t have made a broad claim
why i engaged in this thread? because i don’t like being told that franchises and communities are supposed to take action, if they don’t fully meet the criteria/agenda of insert random activist group.
I don’t think that’s really what he’s saying though. I believe he’s saying that people are getting the tattoo who do not support the way of the imperium because GW have left the question of the imperium’s badness pretty murky. They sound like the bad guys but they’re also the protagonists on the covers of all the books.