I think I do understand how it works and even when taking that into consideration, when reviewing my gameplay footage (correctly clocked by someone else in this thread as generally being with a 4-stack of friends) it still looks like I’m getting good value out of the perk with how often Coherency regen kicks in during combat lulls or firefights. The more people you frequently have around you and the more space you often have around your character, the better it becomes.
Call it a playstyle thing but we’ve been getting good value out of it for ages.
And no, it’s not useful in a duo run or if you tend to play independently from your team a lot. I can see that.
And that relies upon having teammates nearby in the first place. Imagine now, the game has gone way downhill, you’re now in a duo or solo situation and have to clutch the game. Nearly every other curio perk pulls far more weight here where it matters a whole lot more. Combat Regen, Damage Resistances, Raw Toughness and Health, Stamina Regen, Block and Sprint efficiency… All of these things are very impactful perks that WILL give you an advantage in both the four stack scenario and the clutch scenario and beyond. Meanwhile toughness regen speed requires you to have teammates nearby, which is already questionable in pubs, but also means it loses value as the situation gets more stressful.
The primary thing I hate about Toughness Regen Speed is that simple fact - You only gain value out of it when things are already going well enough.
I suppose you could say it helps maintain that stability, but I find that to be a weak argument especially when it depends so hard on ideal circumstances. Organized team, tight formation, nothing going so wrong the team gets too separated, etc… Meanwhile the other perks can fill the role of maintaining this same stability, alongside still helping when it’s no longer stable.
Our philosophy is to always build for failure cascade avoidance, or “maintaining stability” as you put it. We don’t plan for failure, we aim for success. That’s the thought behind it.
I reckon that’s why most consider it not best in slot or at least worthy enough for universal recommendation.
In a non-4-stack scenario it’s near worthless. Even if you don’t factor in the slot mechanics that disable it.
That’s honestly a non-answer given that the argument to avoid toughness regen failure is requiring a close knit 4 stack. The same could be said to you. His arguments seem more sensible to me tbh
Yet you can still build for that while ALSO helping in the failure state by picking so many other perks. The other perks provide value in BOTH circumstances.
Like what, revive speed? It doesn’t do anything, as in literally an inert perk choice, if nobody is going down. The game isn’t hard enough (unless you make it that way by playing duo content, for example) for perks like that to be more valuable than toughness regen speed for the majority of players in the majority of situations. Toughness Regen perks, especially when combined with Lynchpin and/or Towering Presence and a playstyle that has you sticking close to your teammates, provides a good benefit with high uptime. That’s been our experience and judgement.
You did read my original reply, right? Where did I mention revive speed?
Nonetheless, let me entertain another idea:
The Ogrynomicon is written as a general guide for all ogryn players, correct? So, the pub players, the duo players, the solo players, players such as yourself in tight knit groups… Yet clearly suggesting perks and talents that only aid one style of play. You see a problem here?
At the very least, given you conceded earlier that Toughness Replenishment Speed isn’t good in duo scenarios or playing apart from the team,
that should be reason enough to point that out in one of the most popular guides in the community.
Also, whether the game is easy or not isn’t the reality for all players, keep in mind, that’s relative given the spectrum of skill level is so wide. There are players that struggle to pass Malice difficulty and don’t have a tight knit group to rely upon. Plus, remember, many players play public games where they’re matched with randoms that may actively avoid coherency.
Alright so why is the guide suggesting perks that only get good value in scenarios with a tight knit four player group, when a new or average player is just as likely to land in a game with people that actively avoid coherency? Why isn’t that a disclaimer?
This is my issue. It’s not like this is rare, this is extremely common, especially for new players where the coherency mechanic may not be obvious to them. Average play, it happens there too where we see plenty of people complaining about people running off into the distance. As soon as one player leaves the team, coherency regen loses a lot of value. Guess what perks don’t?
Because we don’t think it’s a relevant caveat. Pubs are not disproportionately likely to eschew coherency entirely, in my experience. We all remember that annoying knife Zealot disappearing into the distance but they’re the exception, not the rule. I have no trouble having a few people to stick to in the average Auric Damnation pub mission.
And then skill levels vary so wildly in pub games that even with players sticking to coherency, teams can buckle quick under scenarios you have no trouble with. What helps the good, informed ogrynomicon reader of the bunch? Certainly not toughness regen speed if the failure state occurs thanks to a vet that fails to use their melee weapon, a zealot whom overextended, and a psyker that just exploded.
Supra has it on every curio in his checks notes “HARD GAMER” build that he recommended instead of anything in the Ogrynomicon, which is how this conversation started.
Reading is hard, give me a break. You really expect me, an Ogryn main, to do this? Sheesh. This is why our guide has pictures.
Anyway, I hate some of those perks and like some others, but I’d never surrender my Toughness Regen for them, and neither would my co-authors. Simple as that.
You can’t claim to provide an objective for everyone guide on one hand and then use this as an argument when someone presents you with alternative and possibly better solutions.
