Interesting thing is: your screenshot doesn’t show the problem at all. For all characters on this screenshot at least half of the kills is from melee.
I am not saying that there is no problem with melee, it’s just that end game screenshots are a very poor proof of anything.
It’s simple…
- Make ranged run out of ammo.
- Make ranged either AOE of single target, perhaps a weak blend
- Crossbows should load while stationary.
- Staffs should overheat faster.
- All gunpowder weapons create smoke, making it hard to aim when spamming.
- Huntsman should be buffed so everything is one shot (I like krub)
What about changing A.I. behavior to prioritize players with ranged weapons out, or on players with the most ranged damage/kills? That would make staying in ranged-only mode much more difficult (except for waystalker + swiftbow, of course) and give tanks a more fluid game-play dynamic of switching between front line combat and covering ranged teammates during more intense skirmishes.
Edit: Already found a flaw, might need to adjust threat levels for Sienna players.
I tend to agree that just . . . reducing ammo regen is the simplest change to implement that could possibly solve this issue. The idea with ranged-classes isn’t that they should be focusing almost solely on ranged, but that they should be able to sustain enough that they can use their ranged weapons to solve more situations.
Don’t ELIMINATE regen. Just reduce it. That’s all. The fact that these classes can always have a shot ready for when a Blightstormer spawns during a horde is really a HUGE advantage for them. Right now, that’s always a given. But it SHOULD require you to plan and consider and not just spam.
Every other suggestion I see requires a massive rebalance of the entire game that basically nerfs it dramatically. Overall, melee mechanics are working fine; certain weapons are under-performing because they’re still balanced from game 1 when hordes were smaller, and there were fewer bosses and armor.
It’s just too easy for ranged classes to get ammo, they get rewarded for spamming instead of being more versatile with it.
And let’s face it; the game IS better off being melee focused. The majority of combat mechanics are focused around the interplay of melee fights. Using ranged right now literally only involves aim and some random deviation on some weapons. Melee has different attacks, you still have to aim for best results, blocks, dodges, pushes . . . The shooting mechanics are relatively shallow. Which is fitting for the style of game; you shouldn’t have to take into account all the factors in taking a long-range shot in VT2 as you do in something like ARMA or even Battlefield. But the melee combat IS deep and nuanced.
It’s already reduced to pretty much the bare minimum and the game is already waaaaay more melee focused than V1 ever was.
Ranged isn’t that shallow. Every target requires a different technique and urgency from SV, to CW, to shields, to disablers. It’s not that shallow.
Another side effect of less ranged is: hope you like getting bent over by gunners, flamers, and stormers more often.
I did underestimate it, true. But it is much simpler than the melee combat, or the ranged combat in most other FPS games, we can probably agree on that.
I agree the skill floor is lower, but the skill ceiling is way higher. You just have more versatility. There’s also a greater risk of sucking terribly, e.g. Any sniper character ever.
When I play , Ranged never dominates everything except when I play unchained fireball.
Anyway, I think it is already a good mix between ranged and melee combat.
The thing is, I often see ranged as something on top of the melee base: ranged is very good and safe for taking things out but ammo is constraining you so that you don’t spam it.
I just keep thinking it in relation to real world. Like saltzpyre’s flintlock is powerful but once he is out, he needs to get dirt on his hands.
I’m totally fine with ranged combat but just put limit on it. I think its at a good place now. I don’t see anyone (except BW) use ranged 24/7. You don’t need to nerf it if you think its too good, you just tune down the ammo. I dont’ think ranged is too good atm.
I am one of those people who thinks that bardin’s flamethrower should cost ammo.
I play with pugs and occasionally with some good friends so take this comment at that.
Starting to question crit and range altogether. Being on target is the only real truly skillful thing about range and being able to crit makes it matter less as you one shot the Elite or Special you’re aiming at. I think that needs to be toned down too, which will also effect ammo replenishment.
With range being better than melee by default, why should it also get the chance to one shot hard enemies?
Obviously not every weapon applies and I think some crit keeps the game interesting, but it should definitely be toned down.
Is hit or dont hit, regardless if its melee or ranged.
Exception is, that globadier you missed with that bolt will surely deal more damage than that Clan rat you missed with your sword, and thats, in my opinion, also one of those problems with ranged: ranged enemies, which you can only reach by being range, are just way more dangerous than a hookrat or runner, compared to a gunner and especially compared to a glob, while melee specials are just cheap.
Cheap in regards of: you either see them and kill them instantly because they are so obvious to or you dont and get dragged to Garden of Nurgle and back or pounced while your teammates can quickly react to that because yyou are in plain view.
With gunners, casters and globs? Not so much, especially, yet again, globs because of their ridiclious throwing arc.
I don’t think the skill ceiling is higher with ranged. There are levels of skill, of course - being able to quickscope or consistently nail headshots - but it still doesn’t compare to being able to effectively use all the tools at your disposal in melee to deal with a group of mixed enemies. It requires FAR more skill to pull off.
That’s the problem. More skill on ranged = more results where on melee you gotta be balls out just to handle generic stuff effectively. They need to make it so you get your money’s worth just as well on a melee character. This used to be through Swift Slaying + Regrowth + any of the remaining great picks but the V2 weapons have lost their lustre and crit rates on melee characters generally don’t make swift slaying better than purely defensive traits in v2, sadly.
The bare minimum is tiny ammo counts and zero ammo regen outside of boxes, basically special killing only. I don’t think most want that.
Enemies require different techniques? All targets die to headshots. The only hard to hit target is the assassin. The shield stormvermin just soak up hits. The majority of targets are either standing still or running towards you.
I’m not complaining about the moveset of ranged weapons, but they’re pretty shallow.
That’s the point right? If you don’t conserve some ammo then you’ll regret it when specials spawn. That it’s too easy to conserve ammo right now even when you waste it on trash.
I don’t think that’s a problem. Melee can get the job done up close (obvs ranged has a vital role in dealing with enemies with ranged attacking potential and are at range). It’s the challenge that makes it rewarding to come out on top.
The biggest problem with melee . . . is that some players who are new to the game become so reliant on ranged (because they can use it all the time) that they don’t actually learn how to use melee. This is a big reason I see a lot of runs fail on Legend; as soon as you get a Chaos Patrol (or even just enough ambients) that they can’t blow through with their ults/bombs, they all go down, because they don’t know the mechanics.
Yes, ranged weapons are “better” than melee. That’s just due to their nature of making combat safer. This is also why they should be limited.
Then the whole game becomes a boring ammo management sim for everyone. V1 isn’t even like that. This is also why Kruber in general is so gd boring now.
There’s more to it than “just headshot it” when time is a factor, as it is with everything but ambient enemies.
Mess with ranged much and FS loses way more players than they’d ever gain. Nerfs, in general, are a terrible idea.
Funny enough, I think the most balanced ranged weapon right now (save for Sienna, I dont touch casters, so I wouldnt know how her staves behave) is BoP on BH, exactly because of that.
I think you have a valid point about nerfs, but right now I feel the game is losing people because its shooting mechanics being dominant make it feel more casual. Sometimes things have to be nerfed at least some. Having more ammo and some ability to regain it ensures that ranged-specialized classes can do their thing. It’s just not their ONLY thing.
But I often see melee characters keep pace with me and I’m an extremely aggressive and kill-conscious ranged player. For reference, not to brag, I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve been “beaten” in score and I’m impressed if people are within a few thousand of me, so it’s not like these people being on par with my output is due to a skill disparity. If they’re able to do that, what’s the issue?
I could understand if melee just couldn’t compete, but it can and does.
Ahhh, another “runner”…
Main problem with meele is to get to enemy before they are nuked, I order to do so…
- Moving speed to keep up with “sienna” 10% moving speed.
- Slayer, Zealot,Handmaid or FootKnight charge forward.
- Party is stretched to a line.
- Wipe…
Perhaps you should wait for the enemy to come to you?
You don’t except people who payed for the game to go idle when you kill, no they will adjust strategy to be able to get to rats. So, they will make a subpar strategy, merely to be able to have some fun.
Wipe!
Shouldn’t cause wipes. Ranged provides top cover and frontliners kill while defining or reinforcing the front. Only way you can rly suffer is if people choose to pick at a blind corner, which will get you wrecked no matter what.