How to fix Havoc

Warhammer 40,000: Darktide Gameplay Feedback
21

I do understand your argument, but The flaw in your logic is that you are assuming that someone that has beaten a higher havoc rank should inherently be able to win any lower havoc rank despite their teammates quality. This is just not how the game is built, it’s a team game. A team of less individually skilled players with good coordination will almost always perform better than one dude that’s cracked trying to carry people who aren’t ready for the difficulty. That doesn’t mean that that group of less skilled players doesn’t deserve havoc 40, their skill just came from team coordination rather than individuality.

Trying to say someone should be able to consistently clutch a havoc 25 (for example) which is SIGNIFICANTLY more difficult than an Auric Maelstrom just because they beat a havoc 40 is just nonsensical. Team play is a thing in this game for a reason. If fatshark wanted the primary form of skill in this game to be solo play then they would have added a solo mode by now.

Also as to my counter point, havoc 20’s may be clutchable, but not consistently. You know what’s more consistent than solo clutching? Having a solid team. And you know what’s most likely to get you up to havoc 40? Consistency. Solo clutching is one of the most enjoyable parts of this game for me and many others, but it’s not how you win missions efficiently. If I’ve proven that I can climb to havoc 40 with a team of players that are just as skilled as me, then by all standards that matter I have earned havoc 40.

Lastly, I would make the argument that what you are doing in lower havocs with off meta stuff is a different form of experimentation from what I was referring too. Your experimentation is simply for fun as a way to spice up the gameplay for yourself and make it more interesting, while generally having little impact on the outcome of the map (victory). The experimentation I was referring to was a team trying different builds and compositions out of necessity rather than for fun. A team just breaking into havoc 30 finding every map near impossible and using several failures before each success may need more time to figure out and try different builds than a better team of players. Forcing derank and map/modifier changes every 3 fails removes a lot of the potential for teams to try different setups and strategies before all of that is thrown out the window as the map and modifiers change.

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22

@ramrod_ikarus
You can’t seem to see the forest for the trees.
You ignore/skip most of what people bring up to the discussion.
Then drop “Accept it and have fun”.

You tell us about “Your experience”, but it doesn’t invalidate the experiences reported by all the other Havoc players, in the very forum threads you comment on. I mean you’d have to be living under a rock to say the new deranking system is well received in general.

What I can’t wrap my head around… is how would more player agency, making Havoc more flexible, less toxic/divisive and improve the experience for other players make it less fun for you? I don’t understand your stance.

“Your argument is invalid, because a 40 rank can always carry a 20”.
Now, that is not always true.
And what about the 40 helping the 25s ? The 40 helping the 30s? When does it become a problem?
Well it’s simple, it doesn’t matter, in this case it is always a problem. Because getting deranked for helping lower ranks does not put you at ‘the right rank for you’. No matter how you try to present that, it just doesn’t make sense.

Now I get part of what you say.
You say “It’s not a big deal, just roll with it”.
That doesn’t mean this deranking system is good and well thought out.
It just means it doesn’t bother you.

So that’s one way to see it.
The way I see it?
Havoc Deranking is inherently bad and Fatshark can easily fix it, for everyone.
And it will make this mode less divisive/elitist, less toxic and more fun for the community as a whole.

For example, if once a player has reached Havoc lvl X, he unlocks this level forever and can create a game at that level (or any level under). Explain to us exactly what would be so bad about that, and why the status quo is better.

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23

I think 99% of players agree with “remove demotion”. And yeah, when you unlock a rank, those ranks/levels should be optional to play as you wish- “I got to 35 but sod that, I’ll have a 27 with cheese for the evening, mr Emperor!”.

Gonna do the thing now… Even the Weaves on V2 has that option! So with the disincentives in that respect, it’s still worse than weaves, even though it’s better xD. While there are more games going on with the new havoc update, a lot of the same issues are putting more players off. And the uptick in havoc games could just be attributed to the update bringing people back for a spell- every update there’s a big base increase that drops off a month after when either the bugs or the disincentives make them stop playing.

24

The big problem I see with removing deranking is that after a big part of the community inevitably climbs to rank 40 the party finder will be empty again. We saw that in Havoc 1.0 already - there were more havoc 40 posted than non Havoc 40, with a lot of people left unable to climb. There is no guarantee without deranking any non lvl 40 game will be full after say two months of the season.
I do understand your arguments and frustration. I did have the same thoughts, he’ll I did drop quite some levels grumpily in the beginning of havoc 2.0 and even ranking up again I am now lower than before but after putting my ego aside I started having a blast. There is a lot of quality of life that can be done in havoc and party finder and it would be nice to have these little changes but for the sake of overall filling groups and increasing replay ability I deem derank necessary.
I do know however I am in the minority and just want this side to be heard as well between all these posts about removing deranking.

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25

I am a lazy writer, if I not answer a specific part/ argument I agree/ do not disagree enough to write a counter point. I just pick what itches me most. I am sorry if that does inconvene you.

26

What? The weekly cache penance is for any havoc cache

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27

You can do any Havoc level from 1 to 40 for 20 weeks to complete the penance.

I’m at 15/20; this is my final penance of Havoc to complete, and I play one match of 1-10 rank Havoc every Monday, so there’s no reason to remain 40 if you’ve already done it once, unless you enjoy the challenge.

28

I think the real issue with this argument is that deranking a significant number of levels is WORK (assuming of course that a player is trying). 3 goes per demotion is a lot of playtime, and I’d argue that it’s probably not common for someone to really invest the time in trying to rank up while consistently ranking down.

I think it’s much more likely that those people will get frustrated and quit. Or just play lower Havoc in the finder (or manually derank with the button). So I really don’t feel that deranking on loss works to fill the player pool below the highest havoc ranks.

29

Thanks for correcting me, I must’ve misread or misheard what that penance required.

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30

Those are fair points, and I suppose I simply disagree. I have felt that derank is causing more frustration and fear towards engaging with the mode in the first place. Removing deranking on its own I can agree would not make people play much more once hitting 40. But, it would incentivize people to queue into matches with lower rank people more often as they aren’t actively disincentivized by the threat of deranking. I do believe that pairing deranking with the ability to freely pick lower rank havocs would be the best thing for filling havoc matches. It would not only remove the added frustration caused by a looming derank (thus making people more willing to engage with havoc in the first place), but would have more people coming back to play different ranks of havoc based on what they feel like doing that day. So even though their rank might be stuck at 40, they very likely won’t only be playing 40s, and will be more likely to help other people in their low rank lobbies

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31

Ok thanks for taking the time to answer @ramrod_ikarus

So you fear removing deranking will kill Havoc 2.0.

However I’m not sure it is reaching rank 40 that killed Havoc 1.0.
If people really enjoyed it, they would have kept playing at max rank, but many went back to playing Auric Damn/Auric Maelstrom after.
Why is that? I think it was not fun on too many aspects, and that is what drove many people away.

Note that in Havoc 1.0, we also lacked the flexibility of starting a game of the level of our choice, so you could not start yourself a ‘smoother’ lvl 30 game if you were ranked 40, unless you deranked yourself 10 times. Then if you did that, you could not start a lvl 40 later on if you felt like it. It made little sense then, and it makes little sense now. I think that lack of flexibility and player agency played a big part in killing it.

As a comparison, most of us have played for months on end in Auric Damnation/Maelstrom, because it was the max difficulty available. And because it was enjoyable, we kept coming back. There was no deranking or ranking involved, we just kept playing because the game is fun.

So if Havoc 1.0 was fun, people would have kept playing it. I think Havoc 1.0 had many issues making it unfun for many in the playerbase, the most prominent one was the gunners shredding you in 0.1 millisecond if your nose stuck out of cover (that was some next level bs). And some of the modifiers were not so great (the goo one everywhere…). For some it was too oppressive, and many went back to Auric for good times. Then it was a vicious circle, until there were almost no games listed at all times.

Now in Havoc 2.0, it is the opposite. I think the changes are going in the good direction! People are trying to get back into it. The new modifiers are better IMO. But it has the same problem as before (cannot choose the level of the game), and now with the new deranking it’s worst.

My true fear is if they leave it like that, it will die again, faster than you think.

Personally I keep playing with different friends, of different skill level in the game. We experience a lot of deranking-reranking in Havoc 2.0, but that’s what is forced on us right now. I prefer to play with my friends when they are online.

If I wanted to rank to 40 with the current Havoc 2.0, I’d have to stop playing with my friends (WTF?) and just play premades with a select few people or strictly form premades on the Darktide discord. I think like many reported, it would be a stressful experience, where people get angry/toxic for any loss (because of Deranking) and this is wayyy too serious for the good times I want to have.

I really hope they listen to the community on this one.

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32

a rather interesting concern.

those were my 2 cents on this. deranking is what keeps me from playing havoc 2.0

i could understand losing a rank a week for not playing. but getting punished for actually playing… no, that’s just making life suck.

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34

Most people who play darktide will never in a million years get to 40 now. The party finder is currently cinstantly empty because of the demotion mechanic. There will always be a steady stream of havoc players if they get rid of the demotion mechanic but if they dont it will stay a desolate game mode. You have to engage with the party finder and right now nobody wants to go play low level havocs for penances because of the demotion mechanic. Also from what I see there are far more lower havocs posted than 25-40 so I dont see how getting rid of the demotion mechanic is a bad thing. Assuming everyone playing havoc is going to get to 40 is totally disingenuous. There are lots of people who only want to play havoc but do not engage with the mode because of the demotion mechanic. Getting rid of it will populate havoc at all levels because right now trying to play havoc at all is frustrating. You can either post your mission and sit forever tryna find people of equal havoc clearance or you can try to join someone elses only to have them not let you in because they dont want another psyker or they think you will lose rank. Either way it is a horrible system that decentivises anyone from engaging with it. Havoc is the game mode fatshark doesnt want anyone playing so they dont.

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35

Please remove Havoc deranking. Players are already incentivized to take the mode seriously due to the time investment and the inherent difficulty of the mode. Putting something at stake that causes players to backslide on loss increases toxicity, pushes the meta to “optimal” choices by ensuring only those get into groups, and generally reduces players’ willingness to engage in the mode.

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36

The problem with the " remove deranking it will solve all problems" attitude is that it is wishful thinking. So I say duck it and remove it for the next season and release the data so we can compare.

Player agency is a dangerous thing: you want enough to keep people engaged but not too much or you get stuff like A.S.S title cheezing and only archivum sycorax runs in havoc. I sternly do not agree with “more player agency always better”.

The whole friends Vs premades argument has some flaws: can’t your friends host the games? They seem to have a lower level than you. Can`t your premades host the games? They seem to be the level you want to push? Or do they also have friends to play with as well? Why is it so important to always be at exactly level with X group? Won’t you have fun with some slightly harder/ easier levels until you are at the right point?

Don’t know what server @Thermaal plays but it cannot be mine - havoc was full of group posts when I played, even Monday morning I could fill my group.

Last but not least the " they don’t want my class". This is supposed to be the hardest game mode the game has to offer. Another post also suggested that part of the high havoc experience is to beforehand get together and find the best group comp. We cannot have both: a game mode which needs matching and every class is always accepted. Currently it caters to the former.

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37

I see no problem in what you wrote, it is after all supposed to be THE hard content and not some completionist stuff to breeze through, tag the title on, and never touch again.

38

i think one of the big issues is that the rest of the game doesn’t. there’s not even a global chat. you can’t whisper a guy and ask him if he would rather you join on the other class. you can’t form guilds or squads. you have to do all of this out of game which a lot of people including myself just hate dealing with because then you have to give the shady discord company your phone number and go on a discord full of powertripping moderators. not to mention all the child predators on discord. often one and the same actually

if the game in any way or form actually faciliated finding players to play with it’d be great. party finder is just a glorified-yet-more-limited lobby browser without any messaging functions though. i’m just not willing to go on a discord or play with randoms while deranking until i by pure luck find good players to group with. that’s just incredibly frustrating and i’d rather just not play that garbage even if i know it’s actually made for players on my skill level.

in contrast, i had tons of fun in hardmode twins. that also was so hard that it was quite difficult to carry people through, so as a rule the whole team had to be good to beat it. in contrast it did not punish you for losing with randoms though so i would for weeks just queue twins, do hardmode, and we would wipe like 90% of the attempts but i would still have fun

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39

My point was that deranking probably doesn’t actually function as a way to fill games in lower levels.

I think decoupling rewards from assignment rank and letting people play wherever they want within their clearance level (without fear of derank because the lowbies you decided to help are helpless) would be a better solution.

You’d keep the carrot, remove the stick, and people would be more inclined to play lower levels.

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40

Noone is playing havoc due to deranking, its very obvious and really just that simple. If they remove the deranking mechanic people will play havoc. Right now there is zero reason to play low level havocs for any reason and the only thing anyone is trying to do is climb but even that is virtually impossible with randoms and the demotion mechanic is why noone is playing. People wont accept you into their games because they dont want to get demoted or they dony want to play with two of your character but thats also the reason why havoc isnt populated in the first place. If they remove deranking people wont care to lose at all whatsoever.

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41

It doesnt matter when I play or how long I try to engage with havoc. Noone near my rank ever accepts me into their games no matter what character im playing and the only
People who ever try to join my games are anywhere between havoc 1 and havoc 15 clearance. Havoc is the game mode that you cannot play no matter how much you try or want to engage with. People should be able to engage with the party finder and find a game quickly as they do in every other difficulty but you cannot for any reason do that within havoc without a premade. I cannot post my havoc 29 mission and get anyone anywhere near my havoc clearance to join my game its not a thing. Ive tried to join like 30 different havoc missions in the past 7 days and ive maybe gotten let into two missions. It is the game mode not worth playing per every metric you can possibly come up with and im havoc forged but apparently that doesnt matter either.

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