Horde/ Elite threats

Mostly Damnation focused, but feel free to talk about the other difficulties.

Game’s easy, that’s my opinion and this is a whine post :wine_glass:

Game will continue to get easier, too, because that’s just expected as bugs, balance, and performance are improved along with the community’s average skill level just naturally increasing.

Game is also fun and really much better now, but difficulty has been in the background on my mind for a while. I would like a discussion about hordes and elites because I feel they have been overlooked due to how hard it was to deal with mobs of Stalkers, Shooters, Shotgunners, and Elite Gunners; and when attention isn’t on the ranged enemies discussions are on specials.

Player’s Power Level

Get to this subject immediately, stagger is too free and easy to achieve. That and cleave are much more important and common than people may realize.

I think it’s fair to say players using the human characters (veteran, zealot, psyker) are focusing on standout OP weapons and may not have noticed everything offers considerable amount of control without blessings. The Catachan swords are, i think, the only (non-power/chain) melee weapons in the game that doesn’t have a special attack meant to flinch and interrupt elites. Kind of a deal, means no matter your build, you probably have the ability to control and stagger elites or large groups of hordes no matter what and adequately.

I feel that needs to be pointed out early because if and when the clearly standout OP weapons get touched, melee combat probably won’t change and stay easy.

Hordes

Love the hordes. Love opening a door or rounding a corner and seeing a massive swarm of zombies before they scream and charge in unison. Love the way they water fall over obstacles and just look really cool in motion and fun to shoot. They’re also too easy.

There’s two kinds, pox walkers (unarmored; 200 hp) and groaners (infested; 300 hp). The attack speed of both seems fine and they are responsive to all forms of stagger (there might be a handful of animations where they can’t be staggered, but not a huge concern right now IMO).

As threat goes, least challenging obstacle. A horde’s threat is dependent on roaming mobs, elites, and bosses being dragged into the horde and also cover for specials, but by themselves, just not a threat. And I feel like they are encountered by themselves often.

Both could stand to always have the company of stronger enemies near them. I’d love to have some unique pox walker/groaner elites there to just ruin someone’s day for positioning badly, but probably more realistic to ask for melee patrols to be near hordes more often (you know the scab/dreg bruisers, ragers, maulers, and ogryns).

Pox Walkers I think are mostly fine, I do wish they were accompanied by stronger enemies more often such as stalkers.

Groaners I think are too weak. Corruption is a cool threat, but I think they could always be more threatening. They can have more health, mass, and stagger resistance on their own. Would a base 400 hp or more, more mass, and enough stagger resistance to withstand most human character attacks be too brutal for Damnation? Considering how many cool tools we have to deal with hordes, would it be ok to make them as a group to be a little more stout and dangerous?

Right now at 300 hp, Groaners are identical to pox walkers in threat with only the ability to cause corruption separating them, which makes encountering them not unique when they could offer a greater challenge to keep players on their toes and actually pay attention to the uglier zombies versus the normal zombies.

Elites

Mainly the melee elites are either underrepresented or just overshadowed by ranged enemies. Seems like on most maps they are spawned as roamers or patrols making them easy targets, especially ogryns.

Ragers are a step above bruisers in threat. Their damage is fine, but most melee weapons have a special attack that can stagger them. They are just too easily controllable for what they are with anything from getting poked by the blunt end of an ax or just punched in the face with a jab from a knife weilding veteran will make them flinch out of a combo attack.

Maulers are awesome, chunky, and hurt a lot. They’re simply underrepresented in the game. Just need more to appear where they’re least convenient. Way more.

Bulwarks are too easy, but possibly as a side effect of the player base gravitating to weapons that deal with them so well. And they will get easier if the plasma gun gets lore accurate shield piercing. They need to be resistant to dropping their guard from Bolters, first and foremost, because it’s just nuts watching a couple of shield boys evaporate. They also share the same spawn rate issue as crushers, more on that next.

Crushers are crazy easy. Easy to flinch. Easy to stagger. Slow. They’re big and scary looking so obviously the team focuses them down. Both them and Bulwarks have extremely forgiving AI, trudging gently towards the players and never aggressively trying to accomplish anything. I actually wish they would try to ledge players with knockback attacks or intentionally blow up barrels or even throw the mighty BAWKS at us. If not that then adjust their attack patterns to not be so forgiving.

And then there is the biggest problem with all ogryn enemies, there is never more than 4 ogryns in a single encounter. That’s 2 or 3 bulwarks and/or 2 crushers at any time, sometimes you might have a reaper in the background. The game absolutely refuses to spawn enemy ogryns with malicious intent. They are only roamers, you can’t be ambushed by them, they won’t spawn behind you, they won’t spawn with hordes, they won’t spawn and track you down unless a horde is already aggroed, they will not spawn inside any event, and they won’t actually try to make players work for anything. They’re less dangerous than Maulers and even the Ragers.

The only time ogryns are dangerous is in numbers and in mixed groups which they absolutely will not spawn in ever. There is just not enough ogryns in the game and the ones that are there are basically speed bumps at worse.

Rather than ask for a new difficulty and divide the community, the composition of hordes and spawn rate of melee elites in Damnation really need to be adjusted to fit how powerful players are. It’s not a simple fix, but it is necessary.

That’s the post; discuss, debate, or whine :wine_glass:

Edit: dumb fixes

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:thinking:

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:roll_eyes: fine what detail is about to get fixated on

I had a high-intensity damnation map with basically only Ogryn groups. Barely any shooters, ragers, or shotgun groups just Ogryns. It was comms-plex, the first area before the bridge had like 9 or more, our Ogryn immediately ulted into them and got smashed in 1 second and died in like 4 more. He got the achievement. Good times. I want to see more maps like that.

I think Bulwarks can be the most oppressive enemy types and they are good where they are. If you don’t have tools ready to deal with them they can make your life a misery, especially the 2 and 3-headed bulwarks…

On one hand, taking away the shield break from the bolter is a very bad idea, but if I can get a shield pen on plasma with no reduction to damage…

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Been at this game for 400 hours and I’ve never seen that many ogryns ever spawn in a single room in a hi-intensity Damnation map and certainly not enough survived long enough to clump up. Therefor i unbelieve you. :pensive:

This is where I disagree and hope to inspire the devs to make them more oppressive.

Teams have to make Bulwarks hard. Every class has tools to deal with them baked into their kits if hitting one from behind or waiting for it to attack is too hard.

Damn i got the hp backwards :pensive:

I find 5 Ogryns as a pretty common sight in big rooms (5-Hi). Maybe they could add a bit more weight for them to spawn. The ogryn map was pretty fun, but probably a very rare outcome, rarer than the 5 specials spawning every minute map I sometimes get.

I think that bulwarks alone are easy to deal with, but they can be a huge hindrance. For me, they are near top priority to deal with. Had situations where they “shielded” trappers, dogs, etc. They work as a threat multiplier. They can be pretty stealthy too since sharpshooter doesn’t highlight them. Turning them even more oppressive would really take from my enjoyment of the game.

BTW, I’d like to see some improvements to the enemies, but Hi-Damnation still requires me to focus, and sometimes I can run lights out if I feel especially masochistic.

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About those ogryns you mentioned…
I have fun, but nasty idea: add them special attack.
To bulwarks - bullcharge with shileds up. Cos it’s ogryn and it’s fun. Stomping and crushing players, just like in L4D2 :slight_smile:
To crushers - deadly hugs. Be cause everyone luv hugs and ogryns are still squishy in a matter of heroes encounter.
Yes, we have dawgs’n’puppies and sailor as disablers and wrestling star as NBA junior. Sometimes even mutie can score player down and out. But poor melee ogryns truly obscured by ranged enemies on heresy+.

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That’s exactly how I want them. Which is why I’m whining about the way they spawn.

This is the correct thread for evil thoughts

We are pro heresy in here

How about a mode where every trash mob is replaced with a poxhound

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I liked the pox hound event, too!

You have that backwards. Groaners are the unarmored early varients. They complain a about stuff when idle. But they are audio mixed poorly and you can’t really make them out.

I agree with this. Recently Daemongate had a kind of extra buff extra mutated poxwalker/burster hybrid i’d love to see in game.

That would be worse than sometimes, always is predictable. Never knowing if a horde descending is about to get way worse is part of the fun of them. Plus they consume resources which is their point.

Poxwalkers are fine at 300 HP. Its usually enough that they are providing corruption and cannot be killed in 1 hit unless some buffs or weapom ramping. Their man problem is how visually indistinct they are. They need more colour and flavor. Its worth mentioning that groaners still have suppression mechanics while poxwalkers do not. Assault troops are meant as the tougher melee foes and some of my favorite moments are massive waves of poxwalkers, groaners, flak assault and blackheads (dreg assault).

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Hell no, they are easily one of the most irritating, annoying, and unintuitive enemies in the game. Maybe becasue I’m not playing at your “elite gamer status” but maybe if they had an actually functional hitbox and interesting mechanics they should be made harder. If you don’t bring a bulwark counter weapon and your team doesn’t deal with them its practically impossible to deal with them when they’re being supported.

20230306_142456

I disagree. They are 1:1 with the less gross zombies in difficulty and how we engage them. There is no difference in challenge with how any character engages them and resources are very plentiful. Just very indistinct and samie.

As far as draining resources go, that’s kind of a subjective thing. Shooting mutants could be said is a drain of resources, but that won’t stop anyone from shooting mutants. If the resource is ammo/grenades, you can argue those are resources meant to be spent. In another way I am asking that they are made harder to make players consider which resources to spend, where to spend, how to spend, but that’s sounding pretentious I just want melee combat to be threatening and not a safe, vaguely annoying thing you can let the veteran with a PS take care of.

Chill, guy.

You can hit Bulwarks from behind, you can wait for them to attack and then hit them. Veterans have grenades, Zealots have grenades, Psykers have brainburst, Ogryns can literally run over them. They can’t block 360 degrees and they’re normally alone anyway.

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I agree with most of this except bulwarks. Yes if you use a bolter they are easy. If you don’t have a bolter one bulwark is easy. If two bulwarks appear with a horde and some elites it can be a quick wipe.

Bulwarks have a janky shield hitbox which is frustrating to play against. If this was fixed so that it matched the shield, then I would consider making them more dangerous individually.

Here’s some other thoughts I had to make the game harder without decreasing game performance (hopefully):

Give us more modifiers more often. 95% of the time when I play it’s only high or low intensity. The other modifiers add some really cool challenges which I would like to play in.

Put in a game mode with multiple modifiers. Being hunted by packs of dogs in the dark would be awesome. Or trying to avoid demonhosts in the mist.

Add in a “deep dive” like gamemode. Deep rock galactic has a game mode where you do 3 missions in a row, that resources carry through on. For example if you use all your ammo in the first mission, the second one will be pretty rough. This game has multiple missions in a single region of the city. Set up a gamemode where we have to do both of them back to back, but without an extraction and rearm. I know this won’t work for people with limited time, but for the rest of us it will be a pretty cool marathon way to play.

Bring in the killing floor 2 mechanic where enemies get more moves the higher the difficulty. Give crushers a charge or let maulers throw grenades. I don’t know, there’s a lot that could be done.

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Wasn’t trying to be rude or anything, just trying to make a joke and say I’m not the most experienced player.

Still from my experience they’re not intuitive and especially when more than 1 spawns in a close quarters hall way you just either hope someone with a weapon dedicated to killing them will or just spam grenades and hope you kill them in time. Problem is amplified when there are Bulwarks with other special or elite enemies. Again if they had a functional hitbox and were more fun to play around I would be fine with making them tougher.

Poxwalkers are significantly harder to kill than groaners and have noticeably more hitmass. The difference is a lot more than just corruption.

If two or more appears, you have grenade even if you don’t have boltgun.
If you ran out of grenade…Just one player getting behind them while drawing aggro would have made them easy kills, but no the dumb pubs would just fruitlessly try to run circle around them thinking they’ll finally get around the shield(they won’t).