Havoc

[DiamondNova]

@Riku

weaves with extra steps

IMO thats fine
weaves were fine idea on paper, they just needed bit of those extra steps

[Ryshek]

Weaves we’re fine on paper, but my personal problem with them is that they divided the player base and turned a game that’s pretty lively into one that feels dead.

Imagine trying to quick play weaves right now. Not gonna happen.

It’ll be interesting to see how it works out, but I am not happy to see the player base get split. Players need to be connected not separated.

[Ryshek]

The biggest thing I want to convey here is that the player base should be connected, not disconnected via game modes.

I’ve watched this play out before on one of my favorite games back in the day, space marine. They introduced too many game modes without a general “quick play, me into anything” option, and it made it impossible to find out where people were playing.

It’s a real problem, you’re currently facing it on vermintide 2. With 5 difficulty levels, and 4 game modes, multiple geographical locations of players and height of 2000 players daily - it’s a problem.

So if I could offer you one major price of advice. Do not split your player base further.

[dragomusic]

@UnLimiTeD

“let us do whatever map with whatever modifier”, without it being outside of regular quickplay.

I wouldn’t give a crap if that was only for private games. It would also give a reason for Party Finder to exist to play custom games.

If they wanted to they could put a restriction on modifier selection to have it be quick playable. No/1 modifier shows up in normal quickplay. 2 shows up in Auric quickplay. Anything outside of that is private.

[DropIt]

You make it sound like it’s easy to join a stage 40 lobby.
You know that you can refuse a join request in the PF?
So what do you think how many stage 40 lobbies will accept a request of someone with stage level 1? This will only work with friends.

[Flawless]

@DropIt

You make it sound like it’s easy to join a stage 40 lobby.

Not really.
Just pointing out how flawed a progression system is, when you can immedately jump from the start to the end.
Even if skipping the whole thing only really works with friends, that is still stupid as hell, when it would likely take >20 hours, to progress normally.

@DropIt

You know that you can refuse a join request in the PF?

Yes.

@Flawless

Due to the ability to join lobbies of any mission difficulty, there is no built in learning curve and gatekeeping. This will result in low skilled players infesting high diff lobbies, unless players gatekeep their lobbies with “proof of skill” via penance cosmetics. Low rank players have nothing to lose anyway and they will drag down everyone else.

@Flawless

If quitting out is counted as failing, those who are trying to progress properly without taking shortcuts, would be punished every time they match with bad players who are trying to jump up to high ranks immediately. It would be reasonable to expect players to be very picky, when it comes to choosing teammates to start the mission with.

[DropIt]

please correct me if i’m wrong as i never played weaves, but wasn’t one of the negative points that you were not able to join someone on a different stage than yours?

With the new system now you got the leeches, but as said you can always choose if you want to accept the join request of those.
For friend groups -and as said before that’s where the skip system matters- let’s have an example:
Player A plays the whole week and got to stage 30+.
His friend Player B and C want to join him on friday. But instead of having fun on the higher difficulty Player A has unlocked, they have to spend (waste?) a lot of time to make Player B and C catch up first.
Imagine his friend Player D wants to join on Saturday. Oh well, let’s start all over again at 1 instead of just having fun on the higher difficulty.

A solution for this could be that you can join any difficulty, but don’t get promoted to it if it wasn’t your next stage. But this could be seen as unfair, as you don’t get rewarded for winning the harder difficulty. Same as you seeing it as “stupid as hell” (unfair?) that someone could skip all the work.

[alsozara]

@DropIt

A solution for this could be that you can join any difficulty, but don’t get promoted to it if it wasn’t your next stage. But this could be seen as unfair, as you don’t get rewarded for winning the harder difficulty. Same as you seeing it as “stupid as hell” (unfair?) that someone could skip all the work.

What would make the most sense to me is that completing a higher havoc that you’re up to increases your rank by 1.

For example you are at havoc level 20. You join your friend at havoc level 30 and successfully beat the mission. You are now havoc level 21.

Seems like a happy middle ground. Doesn’t stop friends playing together despite different havoc levels. Doesn’t waste the lower level player’s time but also doesn’t let them skip to the end. Generally disincentives trying to get carried at higher havoc levels (more work than trying to complete the level you’re at for the same process).

I think Havoc is likely to be a significant step up from weaves in implementation, but I’m not sure it’s going to have a heap more staying power regardless. If you’re gonna fragment the game with different modes you better make those modes something people really want to engage with, kinda doubt Havoc will achieve that but obviously it’s still very early to decide that.

[Flawless]

@DropIt

wasn’t one of the negative points that you were not able to join someone on a different stage than yours?

You could join others in high lvl weaves, if they taxied you in.
But you still had to work your way through the weaves outside of that.

If you played through weaves 1-20, you can access weaves 1-21.
If you get taxied to weave 80 and beat it, you now have access to weaves 1-21 and to weave 81 iirc. But not to anything in between.
And since the achievements were not based on the highest lvl mission that you cleared, but on you clearing a whole bracket of missions, getting carried through, or taxied to a high diff mission did not actually achieve much. You still had to go back and do the previous difficulties.

So if havoc would handle it equally, your havoc rank would NOT jump to what ever is the highest difficulty that you cleared.
It would be at the lowest difficulty that you have not cleared.
Have your friends taxi you to the highest difficulty in a private lobby, if you like the difficulty. Nobody cares. It is a private lobby after all.
But nobody should be able to just skip the entire progression system by having their friends immediately invite them to the final mission.

[Padds]

@DropIt

So what do you think how many stage 40 lobbies will accept a request of someone with stage level 1? This will only work with friends.

And the power leveling services that always spring up in this environment

but you raise another valid concern, if the hosts risking their key they are going to be dictating achieves and builds, so there will be meta “correct” builds and you will be expected to play them. and on the flip side if i have a level 10 key there is no reason for me to join anything than 11+

so for the host to recruit people who maybe want to join there going to have to be the same level… and it is exactly that level of playerbase fracturing that killed weaves and this system is meant to avoid.

[Mezmorki]

@Mayson

Astute observations. You should be on the Design Team.

Yes, all said very well.

[misc200002]

Fatshark never ever learns from its mistakes, this has been well established since before they even made VT1.
In fact I wouldn’t be surprised a completely different person goes on to design any given game or game mode.