GREAT SWORD needs a buff

Warhammer: Vermintide 2 Gameplay Feedback
41

The video you linked is one I’ve seen and nothing in it really resembles the application appearance of the real Montante or Zweihander as portrayed in this game. You can’t cleave through a man with it. The diagonal are to clear space so one doesn’t become overwhelmed, you physically cannot cleave a man in twain with this weapon or deliver killing strikes to multiple opponents. That’s because in real life people would back up instead of charging directly into your swings. Furthermore, single opponent thrusts and dueling actions would still be utilized once space is cleared. Not necessarily deep cuts either, just a thrust or cut strong enough and precise enough to kill the opponent or disable them as quickly as possible.

I don’t need sweaty to link me youtube videos for a fantasy game with medieval combat and weapons that are so unrealistic they’d make any novice HEMA martial artist cringe. I see people constantly do this to try and lend credibility to their position. There’s no point in doing that when the game is so far removed from reality. It’s ridiculous to even consider using that as a way to defend the state of the weapon. Occasionally, I like to learn about medieval history, manuscripts, art, technology and literature in my free time. I also like to learn about European medieval folklore, and mythology. The combat in this game is pure fantasy and there’s almost no value in analyzing the realism of the combat or making an argument based on how realistic it is or not.

That said Warhammer is a franchise like many other’s which has art and style that is derived and inspired by real historical figures, events, and locations, often from different periods and cultures mixed together. It is a strength to draw upon real historical art, folklore, and mythology. It adds layers of complexity and detail to the game to use real life historical as a basis. However, realism is only important insofar as it adds value to the art. This is a silly violent adult fantasy horde game. It’s not a medieval weapon simulator. As far as I’m concerned, they actually could try to use animation and movements that do look and feel closer to the real use of the weapon just to add a bit more authenticity, but that hasn’t detracted from the game and it’s not a highly requested feature.

So, adding moves and interesting combinations of them for movesets isn’t going to hurt the game and trust me, it won’t be an issue for your sense of realism based on what you sent me.

Perhaps my idea won’t work. I’m not too concerned with overanalyzing what I’ve suggested. With some creativity and balance nerds, I’m sure someone else could come up with something better.

I simply won’t be swayed that one couldn’t touch the greatsword to make utilize a more dynamic moveset that requires more practice and skill to use and is more fun and satisfying. The crux of most people’s issue with the weapon is either that they’re Champion or Legend without much utility for the weapon or understanding of how to use dodges and position, so they erroneously assume it’s weak.

The rest is subjective. You like it and think it’s not boring at all. People are somewhat divided on this but from the majority of players I’ve encountered and even surveyed on this forum, people want it changed to be more fun to use.

I don’t think so. I think there’s just a few that are similarly boring like the Greatsword. I would say Greathammer is only marginally more interesting to use because the light attacks are neat for occasional massive single target damage, but it’s also a boring weapon. Bardin’s Pickaxe is a bit more unique, but it’s awkward and it feels underwhelming.

Really besides those three, I find every other weapon in this game intersting. There are just a handful that are either overpowered or underpowered, and really in spite of the balance issues brought about by the balance pass, most things have been improving.

If Fatshark doesn’t change people’s beloved Greatsword or any original weapons, to add dynamic movesets that require knowing combos, I couldn’t blame them. Still, it’s a shame to me that this weapon remains in such a bland state.

I’m aware of how to play the game. I got 3000 hours. I just don’t jot down every detail and nuance of how the weapons can be used in this game. My point remains though. Having a weapon with a moveset that’s bland just to make players think about dodging doesn’t make sense to me.

A subtle difference, sadly too subtle and unintersting for me to care or to make the weapon feel fun to use. It’s funny having up to 60% bonus attack speed on Merc with the extra 75% cleave and clearing everything in front of you with comically sped up looking swings, but that’s the only way I really enjoy it and it gets old fast.

I’d say that Saltzpyre’s Greathammer, while being possibly OP or maybe it’s just that Warrior Priest is OP, it’s a good example of a weapon that has a dynamic moveset. It’s good vs. both target and hordes, with the only weaknesses being the dodge and sluggish moves. A skillful player can use a good sense of timing and positioning to avoid these weaknesses. Unlike the Greatsword, it has a unique moveset to master to get the most out of the weapon for use against crowds or single target.

It’d be nice if the regular Greathammer was more like that, and perhaps something similar for the Greatsword too. All it needs to satisfy me is something to make it so that the moveset is more dynamic and interesting visually and in practice. The weapon has a pommel and a point, a second grip, and half-swording is a thing. If any of those elements of the weapon were utilized in this game to allow the player to string together different moves, that would be fun. The weapon special key also exists and I think almost every weapon could benefit from having some use for that key, even if it’s just a fun punch like with the Greathammer or a pommel strike with the Greatsword.

My idea for a moveset might not work precisely as I have it. I’m just putting ideas out there, and even if it’s not perfect, it would be more interesting and feel more fun to use. You might enjoy it as is, but hopefully it wouldn’t bother you if a well balanced dynamic moveset was added.

42

Well as i mentioned, explaining the fun to somebody who doesn’t appreciate the thing the same way - is difficult.
I would prefer if you give me some benefit of the doubt here, and view the bigger picture i tried to present. I’ll try not to repeat myself after this post.

The whole dabbling into realism territory is me just saying: i feel immersed (thanks to the contributing factors). The greatswords design provides a playstyle that makes me feel like a badass zweihander bodyguard who is a master of 1vsX. No other weapon in the game does that for me.

Strictly speaking - true. For the factors you mentioned, like it being a method to create space and not to kill, that you cant multikill in one strike.

But stylistically speaking - there is a parallel to ingame implementation.

If you do Lights and Heavies with greatsword in any sequence (and extend the hitbox too) - it feels a lot like montante user creating space. With the difference that enemies are stupid or crazy enough to stand in the way of swings, and vastly (fantastically) increased cleave power or force of the sword.

Lending credibility to my position? Bruh :smile:

Its like you don’t see that somebody can genuinely believe that greatsword design in Vermintide was inspired by an image of a hero, using a big sword in big wide motions, being very intimidating. (Just like in the video).

True, i never intended to sound like realism is always good in a game.

By the way, who decides what is the valuable addition to the art?

The biggest limiting factor is that its a first person game, going for realism is often at odds with making it look good and clear from 1st person camera.

Again, its not purely about sense of realism, its about this style of fighting being there. Who says that Kruber has to use halfswording or stabbing, maybe he’s always in the mood for swinging around wildly with his greatsword.

There’s a limit in design space, both in terms of what roles weapons can do (no weapon should excel at everything). And what can you stuff into attack chains. The number of inputs is also quite limited.

Maybe those who’re having fun wont post in greatsword topics (since they’re satisfied). Most likely its true that we’re a tiny minority who enjoy the weapon in full form.
Is it really worth taking away what minority enjoys, so that a potentially bigger audience may (or may not) enjoy it?
I can easily see you being in my shoes, if you become a fan of something that’s obscure or that stands out.

What’s boring is entirely subjective. One man’s trash is another man’s treasure.

I would never enjoy greatsword with those speeds, lol. It breaks the whole design: Light attacks become pointless, its a lot harder to do 180°s+ with Heavies (due to much faster release phase). Not that you really need drags with such atk speed.

The maximum i go for is +20% AS on Merc: 10% from items, 10% from paced strikes (shared). Opportunist trait. Its one of the few weapons where i hate SS, because it interferes with my timings and hitbox drags. Opportunist on the other hand is a really nice addition that easily felt on elites and chaos mobs.

Yeah, i dig the Holy Great Hammer design. The animation quality and variety is top notch. I’d like to see some new weapons with such design principle, maybe a claymore, or kriegsmesser, or flamberge.

3 Likes
43

Your suggestions would destroy the identity of the greatsword.
If it ever gets anything I bet it will be something more subtle.

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Correct. The use of the Greatsword in this game seems extremely uninspired. I don’t see how it could be otherwise.

So, in summary it’s just our subjective opinion and you think you’ll sway me with a video showcasing the Montante and how much you think the simple right/left swings are actually beautiful animations.

If you’re a fan of realism at all, again this makes no sense to me because it’s pretty far removed from reality and the video you shared. If you’re a fan of fantasy twiriling like in the Witcher, still don’t understand how that translates to enjoyment of the one, two, one two…

Is the idea to sway people that it’s not boring? You came in talking about powercreep and now you’re telling me you can’t reason somebody to have fun but that seems like what you’re trying to do. If changing gameplay to make it more dynamic and increase the options available to the player from " One Two One Two" to something more bothers, I don’t see why.

To be clear, I’m not saying Fatsharks made the weapon bland because they were careless. I think it’s because they clearly learned more as they’ve been making the game. New items added often have more interesting movesets, even if they’re not always the most balanced. I think the problem with Greatsword isn’t the balance or it’s role, just it’s blandness.

How so? Is this your opinion, you’re not offering any perspective.

If it’s a balance concern, just tweak the numbers and the moveset, use a different moveset, even a more subtle one. I’m for anything subtle or not as long as it makes it more dynamic and fun, or keep it subtle.

45

The easily accessible heavy swings with its special armor cleave is the uniqueness of the greatsword.

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I wouldn’t take that away. I kept the heavy swings in my suggestion, and they’re still fairly accessible.

47

You think what you want, I prefer the present moveset.

When I added heavy overheads after the push attack I thought the better single target damage will be useful. But I barely used it in the practice. Maybe it requires more learning, I don’t know.
I still think it’s a cool trick, but it’s just a trick, not a fundamental technique.

48

What are you talking about? Did you add heavy overheads in a mod to test it out?

49

Yeah Zoli mods in weapon changes to see how they feel in practice. Cool stuff.

1 Like
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Oh neat, still, a manual overhead isn’t really what I was suggesting. I’m more interesting in changing up the moveset so that some of light and heavy attacks have to be mixed to get the effect it currently has while also adding in fresh animations that use other parts of the weapon like the point or the pommel.

51

FS won’t add new animations to existing weapons like a pommel strike.

3 Likes
52

Three reasons basically:

  1. swing hitbox manipulation (wider arcs) with Lights and Heavies. Which is very negatively impacted if you stack too much attack speed, that is often inconsistent (Swift Slaying procs)

  2. enemies try to circle you in the open (so rotating camera around often)

  3. suspension of disbelief (even though its not the same movement as in witcher’s whirlwind or montante bodyguard, the combined result from previous points makes it seem for my brain that it is close enough to feel immersed that way)

The idea is to have a fun time discussing and expressing.

When we go back and forth, we learn to present our view, it gets refined and more formulated.

I did explain exactly why - soon after the embedded youtube video.

Or because weapons with simple movesets already fill the niche, so new weapons need to do more complex things so they wont be repeating what’s already there. First we had grail knight with complex weapons, then we had engineer with an incredibly simple cog hammer.

1 Like
53

Just chiming in to say that I like the move set of greatsword as it is.
When I like to play something more challenging/diverse, I play a weapon that offers that, when I like to chill a bit on that front, I take simpler ones.
Using it mostly on gk and whc.

1 Like
54

Probably, but when I make suggestions or formulate ideas I don’t consider what Fatshark “can or can’t, will or won’t” unless I know for certain that they won’t or can’t.

Well, you have an imagination, I’ll give you that, and now you’ve inspired me. What if the moveset were effectively similar but the animations and gameplay were changed to allow for movements that add just a bit more of the momentum we see with the use of the Montante from one swing to the next.

So if I understand, the simplicity of the swings, and being able to easily go back and forth between light cleaves and heavy ones is appealing. I agree, and my idea didn’t really keep that. I’m thinking too much of weapons that alternate between single target and multiple by combining light and heavy attacks. That doesn’t quite work for the Greatsword so well.

Going back to the Montante video and Witcher twiriling, I like the idea that somehow those animations and something from that style could be applied to the Greatsword to enhance the gameplay and the visual feedback when using the weapon.

Perhaps if strikes build momentum and start out slower, but become faster with continued swings until they peak (for both light and heavy attacks or any combination of the two, as long as the attacks are not interrupted by a block/push or idle time). That might enhance the gameplay by incentivizing stringing attacks together.

To go with that, maybe the animation could also use swings that start out more diagonal with slightly less cleave damage and become more horizontal.

In any case, the fluid movement from one strike to the next is not felt or seen in the animation to me. I can’t suspend belief enough to see it. From the perspective of the player, it looks like a rigid swing lacking any fluidity from one to the next. If the animation resembled the use of the Montante where one attack fluidly translates to the next.

Instead of simply swinging left, right, left right, perhaps the swings could alternate between left, left, left, right right, right or left, left, right right. As the one swinging uses the momentum of the last swing going into another swing from the same direction, sort of whirling the blade. Once the attacks reach their peak speed and damage, each followup attack is the same damage/speed as the last.

To add some flavor to the single-target push attack, perhaps the initial push attack could be followed up with a single-target light attack combo, with each attack consuming the same stamina as a push. As with the regular light and heavy attacks, they build momentum, going from lower damage/speed to higher damage and speed. It could use some of the animations I suggested, pommel strike for initial stagger, followed by a vertical cleave, and then a thrust, and repeat. The total damage output and stamina cost of three swings being the same as the current greatsword, but adding more flavor and rewarding continued strikes against the same target by having the damage/speed go from lower to higher.

I’m now looking at the Armory stats for reference. So here’s an example of how the moveset might look with attacks that build momentum:

10 Light/Heavy Attacks: 
1 Left -> 2 Left -> 3 Right -> 4 Right, 5 Left -> 6 Left -> 7 Left ->  8 Right ->  9 Right -> 10 Right, (Repeat 10)

 1 Linesman | Damage 11.90 | 0.90 Speed |  9.45 Cleave | 8.95 Stagger
 2 Linesman | Damage 11.90 | 0.95 Speed |  9.45 Cleave | 8.95 Stagger
 3 Linesman | Damage 13.20 | 1.01 Speed | 10.45 Cleave | 8.95 Stagger
 4 Linesman | Damage 13.20 | 1.07 Speed | 10.45 Cleave | 8.95 Stagger
 5 Linesman | Damage 14.50 | 1.17 Speed | 11.45 Cleave | 8.95 Stagger
 6 Linesman | Damage 14.50 | 1.25 Speed | 11.45 Cleave | 8.95 Stagger
 7 Linesman | Damage 14.50 | 1.34 Speed | 11.45 Cleave | 8.95 Stagger
 8 Linesman | Damage 15.70 | 1.44 Speed | 12.45 Cleave | 8.95 Stagger | +10% Crit Chance | 1 Stamina Cost
 9 Linesman | Damage 15.70 | 1.55 Speed | 12.45 Cleave | 8.95 Stagger | +10% Crit Chance | 1 Stamina Cost
10 Linesman | Damage 15.70 | 1.67 Speed | 12.45 Cleave | 8.95 Stagger | +10% Crit Chance | 1 Stamina Cost

 1 Heavy Linesman | Damage 24.50 | 15.50 Armor Damage  0.90 Speed | 20.38 Cleave | 26.75 Stagger
 2 Heavy Linesman | Damage 24.50 | 15.50 Armor Damage  0.95 Speed | 20.38 Cleave | 26.75 Stagger
 3 Heavy Linesman | Damage 26.75 | 15.50 Armor Damage  1.01 Speed | 22.38 Cleave | 26.75 Stagger
 4 Heavy Linesman | Damage 26.75 | 15.50 Armor Damage  1.07 Speed | 22.38 Cleave | 26.75 Stagger
 5 Heavy Linesman | Damage 29.00 | 15.50 Armor Damage  1.17 Speed | 23.38 Cleave | 26.75 Stagger
 6 Heavy Linesman | Damage 29.00 | 15.50 Armor Damage  1.25 Speed | 23.38 Cleave | 26.75 Stagger
 7 Heavy Linesman | Damage 29.00 | 15.50 Armor Damage  1.34 Speed | 23.38 Cleave | 26.75 Stagger
 8 Heavy Linesman | Damage 30.25 | 15.50 Armor Damage  1.44 Speed | 24.38 Cleave | 26.75 Stagger | +10% Crit Chance | 1 Stamina Cost
 9 Heavy Linesman | Damage 30.25 | 15.50 Armor Damage  1.55 Speed | 24.38 Cleave | 26.75 Stagger | +10% Crit Chance | 1 Stamina Cost
10 Heavy Linesman | Damage 30.25 | 15.50 Armor Damage  1.67 Speed | 24.38 Cleave | 26.75 Stagger | +10% Crit Chance | 1 Stamina Cost

(Light/Heavy Attack 10 repeating until interrupted or stamina depletion)

3 Attacks Following a Push: 
1 Pommel Strike (Quick) -> 2 Overhead (Normal) -> 3 Thrust (Slow)
Each following attack executed by clicking after the initial push attack, each costing 1 Stamina

1 Pommel   : Linesman | Damage 13.50 | 1.24 | 1.24 | 1 Stamina Cost | High Stagger
2 Overhead : Linesman | Damage 24.75 | 2.24 | 2.24 | 1 Stamina Cost
3 Thrust   : Linesman | Damage 30.50 | 1.24 | 1.24 | 1 Stamina Cost | +10% Crit Chance

The numbers can be tweaked if in action this is too much or too for balance reasons or to feel the momentum. Also, 10 attacks is a lot. I wouldn’t imagine that players often reach that high. That might be adjusted so that it’s closer to 6 attacks. I would have to test it.

I wonder if maybe a weapon special combo that follows the same pattern I laid out above for light/heavy attacks would work for half-sword attacks to offer decent stagger but low damage. I’m not sure that would be useful, but it sounds fun to me. Nothing amazing or as powerful as Greathammer or Mace wide swings for stagger, but enough to clear space and stagger a large amount of trash enemies and maybe one or two Stormvermin.

Anyway, what do you think of this proposed moveset?

1 Like
55

How much value do you put in accessibility? That you put that on greatsword as a pro indicates that other weapons aren’t as accessible…which would they even be?

The closest to a weapon being unwieldy to use is probably OE’s Crank Gun owing to its tedious slowdown fire and constant need for cranks. But even that’s kinda pushing it.

To desire a brain-dead simple weapon you can mash indicates value for it to exist, which assumes other weapons can be so complex as to not be fun for new players to mash on recruit to champion, which… simply isn’t a thing. If you’re new to this games you’ll have fun mashing the attack button at the bad guys.

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And what weapons are “challenging” that you can’t just chill in the front mashing attack buttons with?

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I wrote “more challenging” as in comparatively, not challenging per se.
You can just button mash with most weapons but it won’t be as effective as with the great sword.

58

The good single target damage of Sword and dagger is available only as a second attack either after the heavy 1 or the push attack.
The bret swords heavy -light horizontal combo chain is available only after the second heavy.
The horizontal attacks of the crowbill are the second and third and it does matter in combination of Necro’s reaping talent. If you don’t block cancel, half of the light cycle reaping are wasted, one third if you do.
The falchion has only a single close to horizontal swing: its push attack. You can use it only when you can afford the stamina.
Sienna’s mace good light cycle consumes stamina, so you need stamina regen trinket just to make it work without any meaningful gain.

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Thats a cool idea, reminds me of the talent “Rising Judgement” (lvl 10 Warrior Priest).

The way i see FS doing things - they reserve stackable buffs for talents (and passives), instead of being embedded in weapons.
But lets assume they’d make an exception for greatsword.

Yes, they should become slightly more horizontal as stacks build up, and on top of that, their swing arc should become wider and wider. So even without moving your camera, at max stacks you hit at much wider angle (can be outside your FOV even), than when you start.

Alternatively, at 0 stacks the attack wind-up phase (charging) takes normal time, and release phase (sword moving across screen) also takes normal time. But as you build up stacks, the wind-up becomes faster, and release phase becomes slower - allowing you to extend the swing hitbox in a much wider arc.

For stats, i’d like the stacks to add more stagger power and damage (vs 2nd target and up). And maybe cleave (but not sure).

That made me thinking, can this be more straight-forward.

I had an idea of this: Lights only, and Heavies only - are the usual Left&Right swings.
But if you go from Light to Heavy, or vice versa, then you do the same side swing (first rotating the sword above yourself).

In that case, Light 1 should swing from left, Heavy 1 swings from right (as usual).
Its quite a work for animator btw :smile: To make all the transitions with hands moving around. But it can look very epic. Warrior Priest’s greathammer has a same side swing with weapon rotation (i think its Heavy 1->Heavy2).

Yes, its better to be 4-6 stacks.

I think halfswording attacks are not an option for weapon special, due to animation problems. Going from idle to halfsword grip takes time, and the attack itself too, so the whole thing will either look jank, or will be too slow for comfort. Pommel bash though can fit.

That can look really good.

1 Like
60

Cool, put a bit of thought into it, and we got something interesting that we both like. If they plan to keep working on this game, at some point they could do something like this.

I bet it might be possible to mod in an invisible stacking buff to test out the idea, even if the animation and moveset remains the same.

It might be what you mentioned about it being difficult to animate swings, that might explain why it feels like rigid sweeping motions. It’s one of those that doesn’t quite feel right to me. An animation where he swings his arms overhead and around to strike more than once from the same direction and then reverses might be neat. So instead of 10, maybe 4-6 like you said, but similar dynamics with each attack getting stronger than the last in almost every respect, but in a subtle way so as to start out just slightly weaker than the current attack, and then building to stronger attacks by chaining them together. I like the idea the heavies and light attacks can be blended so that each animation pairs with the last nicely.

Perhaps Right, Right, Left, Left, and repeat, so it’s only 4 moves, while just having an invisible buff that’s unique to this weapon where each strike adds a stack. Maybe just like 2% bonus per swing stacking up to a max of 10% more cleave, more speed, more stagger and a little more damage after 5 swings. And then having the 10% crit chance bonus for every strike at max stacks.

As for push attack combos, when I’m going single target, or just 2 armored enemies like maulers or black rats, I alternate between a heavy attack and the push attack. Sometimes it’s just push attacks. It might be neat if they break up the monotony and dynamics a bit by having ‘Pommel Strike, Overhead, Thrust’ each costing 1 stamina going from stagger to higher damage with each attack.

If that were done, I think it could be done in a way that doesn’t change it’s role as the king of crowd clearing and cleave while also making it feel less bland and leaning more into the idea of a man swinging a big sword.