GREAT SWORD needs a buff

Greatsword is undeserving of buffs in its current state.

Greatsword’s weaknesses are monster dps and being dull. It’s like a simplified Greathammer that barely uses its lights; the heavies solve near every problem with a bit of time and very little risk. Just spamming heavies will pass missions on both Official content and in Modded (not that modded is relevant to Official balance).

Lower the heavy attack’s cleave, probably movement speed while charging as well; then buffs to other parts may be reasonable.

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I’ve recorded a 2min greatsword compilation, where i showcase hitbox extension and aggressive horde clear:

I noticed that in general, i don’t spin&strike around that often.
Also:

  1. All these moments have low to no elites (and specials). When i tried being this aggressive with lots of elites, i get bonked (can interrupt them only if they’re 1st target hit). Because awareness drops a lot with spinning, its not suited for difficult encounters, but its fun.

  2. Staying close to teammates (aggro trading) allows for more swinging wildly around without getting hit.

  3. Hitting in 180° with heavy attack - actually not easy, i can do it maybe 50% of the time. Got this from placing 3 dummies around my Merc and trying to hit them all.

A side note, its very easy to hit cleave limit with Heavy swings when playing Foot Knight vs chaos trash hordes, and i get punished for it because i’m accustomed to Merc’s cleave.


Its a good point, and Swift Slaying is partially at fault here. With good enough crit chance, it just transforms how weapon is being used. In this case, Heavy spam is all that you really need most of the time. I had a thought that maybe we should nerf SS to give +10% AS, and add static 5% AS to all weapons. It’ll also improve trait balance.

Regardless, the Light Attacks need some buffs, and Heavy Attacks - some nerfs.

I’d go with lowered movement speed while charging Heavy Attack (from 60% to 30%), and lowered damage values on Heavy Attack for 2nd+ target.

Add more stagger cleave for Heavy, so that there’s less difference between damage cleave and stagger cleave. It feels weird clearly hitting enemies late in the strike, and they don’t even flinch (feels a bit like ghost swing).

Add armor sliding to Light Attack, and increase cleave (both types) - to match 70% of Heavy attack’s level. You wont interrupt elites with Lights, so it wont be busted, i think.

Nerf dodge distance if needed for compensation.

It should get a stab special action attack, and a tiny small increase in range

I downloaded the SDK, I have experience with programming, and LUA in particular is one I’ve spent some time with years back.

I’m not familiar with the process of packaging a mod for Vermintide 2, but the suggestion I made earlier could be applied via an invisible buff and a reduction to the base stats of the Greatsword. If you know how to do that, perhaps you can test that out and showcase it if you’re interested.

If not, perhaps I can give it a shot sometime.

In lieu of having no animations for the push-attack combo, one could simply mod in the effect.

I don’t think it even needs to be a special attack. Just change up it’s bland one note moveset it currently has

I support this idea, by adding a special attack or like @GreenColoured said vary the light attacks. I see myself entirely ignoring the light attacks just because heavies are the same with just more cleave. But keep the heavies unchanged they are the whole reason why you take GS

Imo just adding a special attack would be better than changing light attacks. I see a powercreep issue if you have those strong heavies for horde/mixed horde and good versitale lights against single target. It would most likely result in allrounder weapon with little reasons to take other weapons if you change the lights to anti-singletarget attacks.

In my personal opinion this is a very weak reason to change GS because there are more than enough weapons which offer you the things you are searching for. There are enough versitile allrounder weapons. And not every weapon has to appeal to everyone. If you want that this is the case then every weapon would be able to do everything, which would result in that there wont be specialized weapons for specific roles/playstyles.

I would argue that you need to be more careful with with GS to keep the right distance and dodging to get the most out of it than with other weapons to keep it swinging. The surprior range allow you that you dont need to block if you keep the right distance. With other weapons, sure you have to dodge as well but it feels to me much more punishing if you have to block with the GS due to putting out less heavily cleaving attacks. The damage output lost by blocking instead of dodging is just way bigger than with other weapons. This is why i think the skill cealing to use GS most efficient is indeed pretty high. In addition if you want to squeeze even more damage out of it you also have to swing the camera aligned with your attacks, which in return makes blocking even more punishing compared to dodging.

hmm i understand this point, but since i play a lot of weapons which need block canceling i am happy that i can sometimes switch to weapons which can give my fingers some rest XD

Edit:
If you want to buff something at GS, i would be happy with a damage buff to the push attack. But not more than that.

If you want to tweak something to make it more interesting, i would go with a special attack.
I am not entirely against changing light attacks but i just see so much problems with powercreep and being a allrounder afterwards making other weapons needless. I just cant trust fatshark anymore in reworking things after the recent patches, i am still shocked by how the engineer rework turned out. And he still destroys every fun of run the moment one of them joins.

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With a special action stab attack I don’t think you’d necessarily need to change the moveset any further

I like the role of the Greatsword, and I like the way it looks better than most. It’s just a disappointing moveset. I don’t want to “buff” it, or change it’s role.

This is all well and good, I use it now and then just to try something different or because I feel like taking on the role of a crowd cleaver, but I don’t find the unique aspects of the weapon or it’s performance compensate for having such a bland moveset. Even if it were functionally the same, just having a set of swinging animations that mimic a more authentic use of a greatsword or even a more fantasy use of it would help it feel more interesting, even if it’s not 100% realistic. Swings that go “left, left, right, right” using the momentum of the blade to carry over into the next swing from the same direction would look and feel more natural than the rigid sweeping swings that go “right, left, right, left”. The way it’s used in-game feels robotic almost, even if you alternate and carefully time the heavy attacks, it just doesn’t feel satisfactory. I get people are worried about making it a “jack of all trades” but I think there’s probably a lot more creative and unique approaches that we could apply without significantly altering it’s performance and roll.

Likewise turning the push attack into an animated combo where one can get more damage by investing the same amount of stamina and swings, or more stagger by going for a repeated push attack is much more appealing and can be done so it doesn’t overly compensate for the weapon’s intended weaknesses against single target by having keeping the effect similar while still having a rewarding outcome by breaking up the simple action of using a push attack three times into a combo where each move requires one stamina but has a slightly varied effect with each attack in the combo. Something like pommel strike, overhead, thrust can be worked into a more satisfying and dynamic moveset but equally effective as using repeated push attacks. Might even have it so that the combo is not interrupted by inserting heavy sweeping attacks inbetween since I often alternate between the two to conserve stamina or deal with a couple trash enemies while I’m focusing on a chaos warrior.

That’s probably a reasonable buff since it does cost a decent bit of stamina but still has less damage than a heavy attack. Although it is slightly faster, I really don’t get a ton out of it if trash enemies are nearby, which they almost always are, I’m going to want to use heavy attacks to hit everything in front of me instead of push-attacking one or two elites with a vertical strike that does less damage and costs stamina. Even if nothing else changes, it’s odd to me that the push attack for single-target damage is only marginally more effective than simply using heavy attacks.

I think after discussing with @doom_hamster I came up with something that works better than simply alternating between single-target and multi-target into the combos.

In case you missed it, my position has changed a bit, and I think it’s better to go about fixing the blandness in ways that minimize the risk of changing the weapon’s roll to much by changing the lights and heavies to something other than crowd clearing attacks. I think this is superior to anything I’ve originally proposed:

The idea is to add more of a gameplay element to keeping an attack pattern going. 4-6 attack might be tter than 10, but the idea being that each attack gets a bit stronger than the last, starting out slightly weaker than the current Greatsword’s attacks, but you get slightly more out of each swing as they speed up.

Then I have that push-attack combo which hopefully would not change the effect of what the push-attack is intended to do while making it more interesting.

If you’re that convinced it’d be “op” just nerf the heavy swings then. But nobody is asking to give GS the same boss and elite killing power as dual axes.

Your first paragraph already indicated why this weapon’s design is shitty. It’s 100% carried by its wide heavy swings and literally nothing else.

But more to the point, where did the “little reason to take anything else” come from? If more people is using it that’s because they find the weapon more engaging and interesting, not because it’s better than the rest. Vermintide isn’t hard enough to warrant minmaxing even on Cataclysm. If people played the way you insinuated, then you’ll never see Bardins use anything other than Dual Hammers, you’ll never see Kerilian use anything other than SnD. Some people will pick 2 handed hammer just because they want to roleplay as a Hammerer. Some will pick dual daggers because they like the sensation of the ultra rapid attack speed even if the weapon is strictly worse than SnD.

The only time where it’s gotten close to what you claim is the mining pick whose moveset is superficially the same as Coghammer’s but clunkier.

And none of those are Greatswords. :roll_eyes: What people want here is a greatsword with an actual moveset. What’s being looked for here is a large sword with an engaging moveset.

Don’t you already have Bret sword for that? I just don’t get why anyone feels entitled to having every weapon tuned to be something they personally enjoy. I guarantee if I came here suggesting the nerfs several weapons need for me to enjoy them a bunch of people would lose it at me for “stealing their fun” or whatever. It’s fine for some things to be niche, it’s fine for some things to be an acquired taste enjoyed by few. There are enough weapons in the game that stuff like that just weaves into and enriches the tapestry that is VT2.

If it must be altered at all, well I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Best way to increase variety of greatsword with minimal power creep is to change the lights into a series of more vertical (mix of overheads and uppercuts), single target focused attacks, but they should only be actually better single target DPS than currently against infantry armour type. Good to more quickly clear up 1-2 maulers or a handful of trash, maybe good for fighting 1-2 berserkers too. Got some variety, not quite as reliant on high density to feel impactful. Don’t think you’d really displease anyone with a change like that.

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You can, as you said, break up the move set a bit just by changing a few light attacks to vertical attacks since Heavy attacks are almost always preferable to the quick light cleaves.

However, even that would somewhat diminish the unique role of the weapon. Having light attacks and heavies both remain horizontal cleaves allows a seamless transition between them making it the only weapon where both light and heavy attack combos can be used to cleave a large group of mixed enemies.

That said, without changing it’s role at all, I think there’s room for the niche and acquired tastes while still improving the weapon itself by keeping it’s role the same.

Did you catch my idea about maybe changing the animations and move set to something like “left left right right” while having the attacks start out slightly weaker and gaining a subtle but noticeable amount of speed and power with each swing?

I think something like that, paired with new animations and a push-attack combo would essentially keep the weapon’s role the same and maintain what players who enjoy the weapon like about it while still adding some more dynamics to it.

The Combo idea for Push-Attacks was like so:
1 Pommel Strike (Quick) → 2 Overhead (Normal) → 3 Thrust (Slow)

Just having it the overhead inbetween be the same, but the pommel strike to start being faster and having more stagger with the thrust at the end being slower but dealing more damage with +10% crit chance. The two followup attacks in the combo after the initial push-attack requiring a left click and costing 1 stamina to execute, ensuring the weapon requires the same investment from the player to get some single-target damage – might even slightly buff it since the weapons push attack vertical is arguably not much better than simply using heavy attacks.

So you feel entitled to represent the whole player base.

I’ve got nothing against any of that TBH it’s just kinda eh to me. Also not holding out hope for completely new animations at this point like a pommel strike. A more vertical light attacks combo could probably be largely copied from the animations of another weapon so seems a lot more likely, not that feasibility has to be the be all end all of balance suggestions, but I definitely factor it in.

Really all I want from greatsword at this point is to feel a bit less lethargic against small groups of unarmoured enemies and a light combo that looks a little less silly to be using on 1-3 enemies. I know that strays a bit from what @doom_hamster likes about it but TBH I find even without swift slaying (I also run it exclusively with opportunist) you’re usually stacking enough attack speed from other sources for the current lights to rarely have a place. FK and Merc can both easily achieve that with just properties and talents.

I said large.