FNP is supposed to be a keystone about getting stuck in and staying stuck in. The idea of the keystone, formerly, was to be able to take lots of chip damage from ranged attacks and some melee attacks while in the midst of combat. Saying this, it was still the weakest keystone compared to Heavy Hitter or Lucky Bullet, but it was at least useful.
After the nerf, Feel No Pain is worthless. The bonuses aren’t high enough to justify losing all your stacks for doing what you’re supposed to do as a bullgryn. It actively punishes you for acting as a tank, and functions more as a hit-and-run keystone, which is not what Ogryns do.
I never saw it as overpowered, and now it’s hot garbage. Revert the nerf.
I don’t understand why it was nerfed. It was already severely underused before. I’m curious what the rationale was. My only conclusion is that they must’ve been unhappy with how gunlugger ogryns pick that keystone over the lucky bullet one. Obviously it synergizes incredibly well with a ranged playstyle. Which is sort of an understandable design issue, however didn’t they make the trees freeform to allow for exactly that?
That said I don’t think they should revert the nerf, they should probably come up with something that sets it apart and makes it more of a “reward facetanking” and less of a “the less you get hit the less damage you take” because obviously the latter will always be more suited to a backline playstyle.
Stacks are removed too easily due to large number of shooters in the game and are difficult to maintain for long period of time. There is a way to restore them using pushes, but the shield is only weapon that almost does not consume stamina and with any other weapon the stamina ends quite quickly.
Also, the enemies might not be around to restore stacks, but there will be a lot of gunners who stands either far away or in unreachable places who quickly nullifies keystone’s effect
By the way, it’s just annoying that I have to play without stamina and constantly push enemies before attacking them. This is a very unfriendly way to make keystone more interactive
Maybe it’s worth return the old condition that removed stacks when taking health damage or at least increase the number of stacks provided by push. Or maybe give some kind of bonus for each removed stack to encourage a style of controlled damage taking to make the character stronger, but less defensive
It still works as a “get stuck in” keystone. Since there are ingame mechanics that largely makes the added damage reduction from Feel No Pain not really needed against ranged enemies (dodge, slide and dodge sliding) and if you made it into combat with something you had good toughness regen/replenish from hitting them, which made the gained benefit from this keystone only kinda usefull. And there was also a specific situation that this keystone really shined, it was during the time where you cannot fight to regain toughness nor move to dodge the ranged gunfire, and that was when you needed to help a teammate up from the ground or rescue them, which meant you could do that with out much risk.
Before the update you could at least count on the added damage reduction to stay up an entire fight, instead of just working at the start and then falling off to nothing unless you made a effort to dodge ranged gunfire while also meleeing enemies.
You could, and I have, argued that the benefit from Feel No Pain could be used as a way to play really aggressive and that way do more damage and just be a meat brick in the way of enemies so that they could not get to the more squishy teammates. Some more problems with the change are related to the keystone modifier, Pained Outburst. Which before could be mostly saved to help with hounds, now it is harder to have it not go off with out some form of real benefit.
So what could be done to help make Feel No Pain better? Revert the nerf. Do I think that fatshark will do so? No, so what could be done to make the kestone at least workable would be to increase the grace period on which you could lose stacks to 1½ second instead of the current 1 second, make the Strongest! Keystone modifer restore three charges of Feel No Pain, which I might add that taking time to push enemies needs to be weighted against just not hitting them with another light or heavy attack, which does do damage, regains toughness and also, as the push also does, staggers the enemies infront of me while also costing me no stamina.
The last step in my plan to make Feel No Pain better would be that in few weeks time wonder why every Ogryn now just seems to be running Heavy Hitter instead. How Fatshark sometimes handles balance is amazing to me, I can’t wait to get the two most meaningful changes to Gunlugger Ogryn, which has nothing to do with the talent tree in anyway. First would be that the Power Maul would get buffed so you could have a good crowd control centered weapon for survival and second would be the fix to close ranged kill blessings to increase the ammo efficieny on ranged weapons.
The wrong kid died…
The nerfed the talent that didn’t need it and Basically left Lucky bullet and all that jazz the same.
Not much of a buff that even helped it.
Imo
Both are true. It was very strong in a vacuum and actually still is, the issue is more that there’s no real reason to pick it because on Ogryn you already get 50% DR for free for being in melee and you regen half your toughness bar per swing to begin with. When the opportunity cost calculation is “I can become even more tanky even though I’m already vastly tanky and already never die” vs “I can do 20-30% more damage” then the choice is pretty obvious.
Like, you didn’t and still don’t need it to facetank. So what benefit does it actually impart?
If you think passively having 70-90% TDR was a good and healthy addition to the game, there isn’t much to say other than this might not be the right game for your liking.
FNP was horrendously OP and still is very strong, end of.
Having played with it myself before and after the nerf, no it isn’t very strong, and it never was OP. Notice I said weakEST, not just weak. Feel No Pain used to be a powerful keystone that was a viable choice to take, even if the other two were overall more useful. The TDR was sizeable (due to being additive, that’s 25% less toughness damage taken) and punished players who relied on it solely for facetanking without actually trying to defend by removing stacks when they take health damage.
Now that it’s multiplicative instead, this means that the TDR you get from a keystone is about equal to if not slightly worse than the TDR you got from pathing to the keystone in the first place, and often you won’t even get the full effect due to how it decays now. Unstoppable having its effect fixed to properly double the Toughness you gain on melee kill means that Heavy Hitter is now better for staying in the middle of the fight and drawing aggro, something that FNP is supposed to do.
Most of the survivability comes in the form of game mechanics to avoid the damage in the first place. Old Feel No Pain made is so that you could even in hectic situations mitigate alot of the damage dealt to you. This was great in leading the charge into melee and have the team follow you in, getting people back up again from the ground and not lose to much health in doing so.
The current version of Feel No Pain just loses the stacks to quickly, unless you actively try to avoid getting hit you won’t be getting the full value of the damage reduction, but IF you are trying to avoid taking damage, what purpose does the keystone then serve? And would it not be better to spend the talent points elsewhere?
As I’ve said previously. Making the grace period longer and regaining more stacks from Strongest! Keystone modifier could make it workable. Personally I’ll just stick with Heavy Hitter from now on.
While moving to ranged enemies, sliding will be better at mitigating the damage and when you are in melee the toughness gains will be enough to mitigate most ranged fire. A keystone must have a clear upside to be a viable alternative to another keystone, and not something you can achieve from game mechanics to avoid taking damage.
I pretty much always have a few ranged units taking shots at my Ogryn depleting stacks when I play, either I have to make decisions to mitigate the stacks loss from either dodging or using dodge sliding, and sometimes I can’t since I’m surrounded, this will vary from game to game and how much help my teammates are.
Against melee? sure. But not losing stacks from ranged as long as you had toughness was better then what we have now.
You’re really just ignoring the opportunity cost aspect entirely. The keystone doesn’t exist in a vacuum, it’s attached to a class. 70-90% TDR would be pretty severely busted on any class that isn’t a low damage 50% DR tank that can facetank enemies already. Especially once you start considering diminishing returns and stuff.
The only time the keystone actually imparts benefit, as mentioned, is when you’re running a backliner ogryn non-bleed playstyle that doesn’t need lucky bullet. I.e. kickback spam ogryn. No real reason not to pick it there. As I said, the design failure is that it rewards backlining even though it’s supposed to be the tank keystone. If it was their intent to nerf this, then it missed completely, because kickback spam ogryns are mostly unaffected by this nerf
Relatively compared to other classes. Getting heavy hitter or burst limiter override alleviates this. Or using the kickback, which is so broken it doesn’t need/benefit from either and can do it from the backlines… hence why it’s used on that.
Do you have anything to say or do you only deal in gotcha attempts?
Except people won’t be running Heavy Hitter because there’s half a dozen different party buffs that can keep it from starting. I’m literally using FnP for the first time ever right now because Heavy Hitter stopped working reliably unless I ran out of cohesion to get my first stack.
Now, that’s a bug, and not a balance choice, so it’ll be fixed eventually… but we can’t definitively know how long it’ll take.