Executioner's Stance is a LOT weaker and restricting in practive than on paper

Warhammer 40,000: Darktide Gameplay Feedback
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It used to increase all gun damage by 50% and reload the players’ gun.
Right now Exe Stance increases gun damage by 25% and an additional 25% if it’s a weakspot hit.
While the loss of reload hurts, it wasn’t like it crippled the ability or anything, but the damage changes on the other hand are actually a massive nerf that ruins the compatibility of said ability for tons of guns, despite still potentially on paper being the same value.

Requiring weakspot hits to get the full value out of the ability makes it have anti-synergy with any non-precision gun that would normally aim for center of mass. Furthermore some enemies such as Maulers you do not actually want to shoot in their weakspot unless you have an insane amount of armor penetration on the weapon.

Unlike practically every ability in the game, Exe Stance requires the player to go with the matching keystone and section of the talent-tree in order to get any proper mileage out of it.

I would HEAVILY recommend changing the damage boost of the ability back to being all ranged damage, rather than being split with weakspot damage. If it’s too stronger at 50% ranged damage with the new talent tree, then 40% ranged damage would still be better than the current 25% plus 25% weakspot. It would also be really nice to see the instant reload return, even as an ability upgrade point.

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Bring back the auto-reload!!!

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I’ve always said that the strength of this ability is more from the wall hacks than the damage buff. Even the old, pre-skilltree-rework version. Because of this, I don’t think marksman’s focus (I assume that’s the keystone you mean?) is mandatory.

Hard disagree on that. Run it with an agri or colum braced auto and you turn into a meatgrinder. I’d advise people who use weapons with more of a spread to aim for the neck or upper torso, depending on the weapon. That way you get the full centre-mass damage + occasional weakspot hits.

Also, yes, bring back auto reload. That alone would make a TON of people’s complaints about exe stance vanish.

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This post seems very confused if I’m being honest. Base VF didn’t reload your gun, that was a talent choice. Same as shooter reset (which had the +weakspot damage Exe has base), or Ogryn reset. I guess it was “taken” in that it’s not a sub node option like some of its other talent options have become.

Also weakspot damage bonus calculation doesn’t work how you seem to think it does. I don’t really want to delve into that but TL;DR guns with higher weakspot multipliers get more out of it

Anyway I don’t think it’s terribly helpful to think in these terms. More pertinent is whether or not it’s a competitive option in the current tree, or good enough generally with the talent point cost of sub node investment.

I do think the recoil and spread reduction are pretty wildly under rated amongst its effects, and as has already been pointed out the intel you get from the highlight is pretty useful utility. I think it’s a pretty good Ult for any gun generally since it’s increasing the useability and effective range of a lot of guns considerably and the damage increase often hits useful breakpoints. The synergy with Plasma wall penetration is also pretty self evident.

The man thing I’m not a fan of is Ogryn reset node and shooter reset node being exclusive from each other, or really they’re being a separate sub node for Ogryn reset at all. It kinda made sense pre 13 but really they’re elites just include them in the elite reset sub node. Plenty of guns are good at shooting both shooters and Reapers so I don’t understand why the sub nodes are trying to force us into an artificial role here with Exe stance.

So yeah integrate Ogryn reset into elite/special reset node. It’s already a must take I don’t think it’s overloading that sub node. Replace Ogryn node with reload on Ult. I dunno maybe that’s gifting too much uptime to Exe stance but personally that’s the Exe buff I’d like to see, not just more ranged damage.

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Something else I really appreciate is that it gives you higher ADS magnification. People talk about how the weakspot focus makes the left side of the tree have a really demanding skill floor, and while I dont disagree, Executioners Stance silhouetting all the key targets and giving you extra ADS zoom makes popping heads so much easier even in the thick of a horde.

I would honestly love a skill node to be added to the tree somewhere that boosts ADS zoom as a passive perk, it would be a very on theme Vet Sharpshooter perk that would be great help for any weakspot focused build that isnt just spraying and praying imo.

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I would like the ability to get a base duration of 7.5 seconds - still reset to min. 5 on Relentless kills.
That would mean that you could technically use it without the extension, if you were short on points.
Maybe even give it an extra node exclusive from Relentless that made every third consecutive bodyshot on a target count as a weakspot hit.
As for the Ogryn node: Does anyone take that? Ever?

Lastly, the ability somewhat suffers from VoC just being damn good. Maybe a bit too good, looking at the size and strength of its knockback.

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Yeah, the main problem with Executiner’s stance it’s that it’s comparatively weak, very much so.

This is due to a variety of things, most notably:

  • Base ability power is about on par with other similar keystones (Point-blank barrage and Scryier’s gaze), but Modifiers just increase duration or support without any power increase.
  • Stance is lost on getting disabled/switching weapons, unlike the above-mentioned abilities.
  • Compared to the fully invested version of abilities (3-4 points) it’s a lot weaker, while usability remains worse.
  • Breakpoints can be reached in other ways, and stacking the bonuses doesn’t have a big enough payoff (Stacking Focus Target!/Redirect Fire! isn’t that mind-blowing for example), so you are just better off going for defensive abilities.
  • There is also the problem that it provides absolutely 0 defensive use. A thing that all abilities provide including thing like Point-Blank Barrage and Scryer’s gaze.

This last point is even more of a problem since Executioner’s Stance Vet is arguably the most vulnerable thing you can play. Ogryn’s huge eHealth and eToughness (latter due to increadible DR) and psyker’s ability to generate enormous amounts of toughness extremely easily does provide a way better base point to make a more offensive-orientated ability, but even those ability provide either Toughness Gain or DR in some capacity.

I think returning auto-reload (as a node) and working “Relentless” into the base ability would make it a competitive pick, and it would also help make the ability feel impactful again.

BTW I kinda feel like they dropped the ball with this too at the rework. Automatically refreshing the ult on highlight kill was part of the base ability (at level 30) for a good reason, and that’s a much better starting point for balance than what we have now.

The shooter/Ogryn highlight is just to boost Relentless. If you just think about them in the vacuum they are painfully weak nodes.

Since FS had some kind of fear of making Vet too strong (unlike on other classes that just came out absolutely broken) they tried to put as many “point tax”/“straps to hold Vet back” as possible, and while other stuff slowly came back up to some sensible level, the current state of Executioner’s Stance is still a remnant of that design direction.

The removal of the CD lockout did help to make the ability less hamstrung, but it only alleviated one problem that they introduced themselves and didn’t actually fix the problem of Executioner’s Stance being comparatively weaker than other abilities.

Also, there is a design problem with the ability being pulled in multiple different directions. It suffers from being both an offensive and support ability while also having points dedicated to upkeep. It is so out of place amongst the other options present in the game. It is kind of a manifestation of “Hacking Vet up and scattering its previous power all over the tree, while all other stuff just got everything and more” in and of itself.

While other abilities (old and new) follow a pretty compact design and the Executioner’s stance wanting to be so many things at once with each direction (apart from Damage/Power) having their own nodes just doesn’t make it more interesting and strong, it’s just getting suffocated by it.

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My only gripe against Exec stance is how it cancels the moment you switch weapons. No reason why it should - an ideal synergy of exec + smoke is rendered completely wasted if you choose to F before you throw a smoke out, yet a lot of times you wont know a smoke is needed until you pop the ult. If ogryns PBB effect stays during melee, so should exec stance. Its only 5 seconds FFS its not gonna break the game.

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I think you kinda forgot how weak VoC was before knockback was buffed. VoC just highlights how bad Exa Stance is. No need to pull down a well-balanced ability to make a bad one shine.

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I agree. Veteran in general is good, but Exe Stance really needs some help

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It’ll continue for 5 seconds from the activation or last refresh, but yeah, the refresh function just ceasing to work if you switch weapons is pretty annoying.

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And what about guns that have normal, or worse, headshot multiplers? They get significantly shafted on potential damage.

Personally I’ve not found exe stance to be particularly fun with anything except the infantry autoguns. Nothing else seems really suited to it. Stuff like plasma & the revolver don’t need the damage and things like the braced autos have such middling headshot damage that they can’t take full advantage of the bonus. And if I either don’t need the damage or can’t get enough of it, then what is the point of taking a damage ult over just slumming it with voice of command? Shouting works with everything and helps patch up the hole in vet’s toughness game.

Exe stance would be better off having a larger damage bonus and no headshot bonus. At least then it wouldn’t arbitrarily favor some guns over other ones.

Did it make sense? I always assumed they were just stumped for a third lvl 30 talent after reload+toughness & shooter refresh+headshot damage, so they just threw something together. I’m fairly confident that volley fire at least highlighted ogyrns during the closed testing that was done prior to the open beta.

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Braced Autoguns hugely benefit from Executioners via the spread reduction. You actually can make your bullets hit what you aim at.

I agree that the bigger overall damage boost would be a lot better than the weird spread it offers right now.

In general, I think it would already be a great buff to Executioners if it wouldnt just stop whenever you get knocked by barrel, dog, or mutant. Nothing worse than dodging a dog with Executioners up and a teammate hugging the filthy beast next to you. Ogryns Point Blank doesnt get stopped by any of those interferences. Sure. It got a larger CD, but that one hardly matters thanks to Bruiser. Just requiring any Elites to die by the hand of your team makes it fill up fast enough that Point Blank can be triggered back to back when needed.

Regarding Auto Reload. A flat buff like that will 100% push the Zarona Revolver over the edge. A node like Overwatch would maybe be able to prohibit that. A CD increase wouldnt do much, but something like removing the ability to crit during Executioners for an Auto Reload might be fine.

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All I know is that last time I played with my venerable agrip brauto with exe stance I couldn’t really feel the ttk difference between having the ult on and having it off. So I swore off the combination. Haven’t really been back to it since I’ve been trying to find stripped down 4 so i can have some fun with playing super aggro spray & pray style.

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Again there’s a myriad of different bonuses so you don’t get exactly equal benefit across all guns but they do all benefit significantly I feel.

No but instead they benefit quite exceptionally from the recoil and spread reduction. The amount of effective range and reliability at mid range a brauto gets from Exe is very very noticeable, and the +25% ranged damage still speeds up TTK a lot. I genuinely miss Exe when I play brauto without it.

My plasma is probably just not well rolled enough but Exe definitely makes mine hit a bunch of breakpoints. Wall hacks is also situationally excellent for plasma. It lets you make much more use out of one of its core gimmicks.

TBC I’m not entirely against this I’m just not convinced more damage bonus is the best path to buff Exe.

It made sense in that it previously came packaged with a sizeable damage boost so picking higher Ogryn and boss damage over the utility and uptime of shooter reset was a pretty good deal for a lot of guns. Now with just Ogryn reset competing with shooter reset I’m not sure what guns/builds would want to take the former over the latter. Maybe plasma at a stretch.

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yeah go for that center mass for green circles who the f*ck cares about ranged enemies or flankers others can deal with amirite
oh wait no
everyone go for the green circles

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Would you share your build then? I’ll give it a spin and see if it can change my mind.

Like I said above, last time I drug my old ass agrippina brauto out of the shed I had a hard time telling when it was providing dps. And while I’m pretty sure that was before the newest tree rework I’m not confident how much that would affect my opinion.

I’m not saying it needs to go back to 50% damage, 35-40% is probably a better ballpark. Either that or just less talent point expenditure for the ability would be fine by me.

Would also be nice to get some adjustments to vet’s toughness recovery so you don’t just wither away after all of the easy Confirmed Kill targets evaporate.

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With the repeated waves of Vet tree changes and consequent loadout wipes most of my saved Vet loadouts are just stuff I wanted to try out for the latest iteration of the tree. Wouldn’t feel confident suggesting a specific build for the current Vet tree. My comments are just based on playing brauto with and without Exe since patch 13. TBC I’m not trying to say value of Exe on brauto outweighs what VoC brings overall, just that I strongly notice how much I can get away with holding M1 rather than bursting at mid range with Exe active vs without. When I was trying a meme graia brauto full commit to braced fire mode build a few patches ago it felt outright unusable beyond spitting distance without Exe.

I’d like to see Ogryn reset built into elite reset then putting something new in that subnodes spot like maybe a heavily nerfed Unwavering Focus to give a survivability subnode option. Keeping effects active for the duration when you swap to melee would also be nice QoL.

Can’t fully agree with this in the current patch. You can stack a very solid toughness pool on Vet and I tend to find CK + either ET or OfB depending on rest of build feels like good toughness generation to me. Committing to two toughness talents to get a comfy amount of regen is pretty normal across all classes. My only complaint about Vet toughness gen is related Keystone nodes not feeling quite good enough to consider dropping down to only running one of the three top of the tree options rather than two. TBC none of what I’m saying here is presupposing VoC but obviously if you are also running VoC I think it’s VERY comfy for toughness.

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For psyker & orgyn sure, but there are some pronounced differences between vet toughness talents and the likes of psyker & ogryn. Namely vet’s talents only work if you are getting kills, so they stop working as soon as you run into a situation where you can’t get those kills. This makes vet noticeable weaker in sticky situations. And I feel is one of the major contributing factors as to why almost every bloody vet is running voice of command these days.

Exhilarating Takedown in particular I’d like to see adjusted. Only working on ranged headshot kills is three layers of hoops to jump through, which seems a tad excessive when compared to other options in the game. Sure you get some toughness DR on the side, but it’s still not a particularly broad talent. Which is a shame when it’s one of the three real options given to the class. Reminds me somewhat of Bounty Hunter being stuck with the two least suitable thp talents since bloody 2019.

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The reloading doesn’t need to return, but ES needs a hard look at it to make it worth the trouble. Especially given how melee-centric the gameplay is now.