Back in the day only headshot kills were counted on the scoreboard, now headshot hits are included.
Hope that settles it.
Elf longbow still performs well with few headshots, especially on WS thanks to bloodshot & charged shot > quick shot is pretty quick.
Javelin’s cleave just needs toning down a bit, that’s it really.
(Currently it sits around Volcanic bolt levels which is just dumb)
I guess the question that @Atheosis is alluring here is at what headshot % does longbow actually become better than javelin? And is it something that is actually achievable by average or only by really skilled players?
I certainly don’t know the answer but that is an interesting question either way to consider. Javelin seems to be getting heavy flak so maybe its precisely because its just easier to do well and less punishing for misses.
Nah, it’s ridiculous, mostly due to how much it can be spammed with every career from the infinite ammo mechanic. Only WS can rspam longbow shots in a manner that is at all comparable. And seriously, I’ve watched plenty of the best solo runners’ videos, they don’t get head shots that consistently when doing snap shots in the middle of melee. There’s a reason they tend to prefer ranged weapons that can one shot body shot specials. It should also be pointed out that for weapon A to require vastly more skill than weapon B to match or slightly exceed it is fundamentally a balance issue. In my opinion javelins should be tweaked to require headshots more to excel just like the longbow.
Yep. The issue with javelin is that it’s braindead and requires arguably the least skill of any ranged weapon in the game to do well. It’s also just obnoxious watching elves throwing it at literally everything for an entire run with zero concern for ammo.
It’s not just the cleave that’s an issue. It’s stagger force is absurd relative to most other ranged weapons.
Agree. Virtually Permastaggering CW is a bit daft from a hand-thrown weapon.
I didn’t mention the stagger because nobody bats an eye at Throwing Axes.
But yeah, bring both of them down to Manbow full charge levels
(CW flinching but can’t stagger lock out of overheads)
Are you aware of the Briar Javelin’s Cata breakpoints?
Mye if anything the current stagger needs to get toned down. Hadn’t played elf in a couple of weeks but just a few rounds reminded me how stupid it is to stun lock chaos warriors and other enemies.
Personally I also think the reload timing could be slowed down a bit since it can get pretty ridiculous when you proc say swift slaying so there really is no downtime and risk from that side, but thats probably something to consider if the stagger/cleave changes alone are not enough.
Hold up here, javelin does not bodyshot majority of elites or specials in cata? It doesnt even kill packmasters on a headshot without heavy power investments if i am not mistaken.
Problem with javs from a user perspetive is that it takes power investments just to kill cata stormvermin with a headshot. Let alone something like a packmaster or bestigor…frankly speaking as a sniping weapon it can never hope to compete with a longbow on that level.
What it does however, is demolish unarmored, unshielded and special free conga lines and offer some degree of long range killing with no ammo demands. No downtime unlike moonbow but generally worse in use and with a nice feeling melee gimmick.
Well stormvermin headshot can be reached with just the weapons power increases or couple stacks of barrage so I don’t really understand why that is still on the table.
Bestigor is probably the one with zerker enemies I would most give to longbow as advantage but even packmaster is something you might need 2 shots anyways with longbow especially if its between multiple enemies.
On average you still need to headshot with longbow, otherwise it gets pretty even on body shot terroritory.
If it needs to invest power just to hit the SV headshot kill then it definitely needs that power for other stuff too, things it will have to give up on some since it cant have everything with such a low starting point. And really? Barrage? Having a sniper weapon that needs to bodyshot the target 2 times before you can kill it with a single headshot seems rather silly. And barrage stacks go down very quickly when not in active use.
As for packmasters in a horde, well, yes, but that horde could just as easily have shields and elites in it anyway and now the javelin doesnt do anything to the packmaster either.
…
But of course you´d need to headshot with the longbow, it´s built and made for it, any comparision is going to have to go on the basis of the longbow mostly headshotting and the javelin doing bodyshots. Plus, i am fairly sure gasrats, gunners and snipestormers are 3 very significant threats that the longbow does better in at all times vs the javelin too. At least with some distance to work around.
The one…two, areas the javelin wins hands down in, the only two, is cleave + no ammo-
And what stuff would that be? Armored/Skaven pretty much cover the weapon against most elites/specials. The weapon headshots every special apart from packmaster at that point and need 2 shots to kill Zerkers, Monks, bestigor and wargor(goes to 1 shot headshot with EP) and obviously chaos warriors are its own thing in the spectrum. I’m really curious what more would you need?
Now we are just into semantics arguments.
Yes, but the question was/is if you don’t have say 50 % headshot rate, would it be just better to use javelin?
Its not like you cannot snipe with javelin, the trajectory compared to throw axes is very good and as above established it pretty much headshots everything that is important. You can just throw it wherever you want because ammo is not a constraint and you can even do pretty reasonable melee dps.
And just to clarify, I personally don’t see a need for a damage nerf just yet since it probably will fall in line with stagger/cleave nerfs alone and hopefully after sott is somewhat deleted from the game.
People in here talking about cata breakpoints like you can’t just spam javelins and either kill or stagger everything, all with infinite ammo. And while I know cata is all anyone wants to talk about in here (I only play cata with people I know), the reality is that in legend javelins literally body shot everything. In my opinion javelins need a heavy rework. If they are going to keep recharging ammo as fast as they do they just need to be nerfed hard (damage, cleave, and stagger), but with a hefty head shot buff possibly. Alternatively their ammo regen can be reigned in so they match other slow attacking ranged weapons (in which case I’d even be okay with a damage buff to hit breakpoints easier).
To be fair, if we are strictly talking about legend there are plenty of other weapons and combinations that can do the exact same thing. Which is also why most of the discussion around here revolves around cataclysym.
Just swiftbow/hagbane alone in legend in hands of waystalker is enough to shoot every enemy you see and just spam F now and then to keep going. Heck you could probably just take ranger vet with throw axes and get similar results but no one complains about that one.
late to this but a headshot ratio over 35% is very unrealistic for most players, regardless of weapon choice
I’d rather have the reload slowed down to at least match something like a Handgun, although Handgun can’t cleave as much as Javelin I don’t think.
If we go by the armory stats, its not even a contest. Jav has more than double the value.
No other ranged weapons have infinite ammo on every career other than moonfire bow. Well there’s overcharge weapons I guess, but all those do is illustrate how absurd javelin and moonfire bow are.
Also no one complains about throwing axes because they are very awkward compared to javelins. Their arc is pretty rough too.